So how well is MRQ2 selling anyway?

[PhilHibbs]

Goodmans DCC line is such good business for them, they're developing their own freakin RPG for it! Try and convince me that line of product isn't selling!Tthey wouldn't be doing an RPG if it wasn't.

I have heard it said that adventures are only published in order to sell rules, they don't make money on their own.

 

[DamonJynx]

Goodmans DCC line is such good business for them, they're developing their own freakin RPG for it! Try and convince me that line of product isn't selling!Tthey wouldn't be doing an RPG if it wasn't.

I have heard it said that adventures are only published in order to sell rules, they don't make money on their own.

No disrespect Phil, but the DCC line are old school adventures for all of the D&D versions. I'm pretty confident they didn't start publishing them to line WoTC or TSR's pockets by promoting their rules. There would have to be money in them or they wouldn't bother. Their RPG is still in play testing at the moment and AFIK won't be released until later in the year, around November I think.

Adventures must make money, how much is is another thing, but even if they only support a particular rule set and promote that, isn't that being profitable by increasing sales of the core product?

 

[PhilHibbs]

No disrespect Phil, but the DCC line are old school adventures for all of the D&D versions. I'm pretty confident they didn't start publishing them to line WoTC or TSR's pockets by promoting their rules.

So, both DCC and Pazio started off by publishing adventures, but then decided they needed to publish a rulebook as well. I wonder why that is. Maybe because it's really hard (but, I accept, maybe not impossible) to make money from adventures. If you want to prove me wrong, which I accept in theory may be possible, show me a publisher that sells adventures but doesn't sell the rules.

 

[sdavies2720]

... If you want to prove me wrong, which I accept in theory may be possible, show me a publisher that sells adventures but doesn't sell the rules.

Cakebread & Walton with Clockwork & Chivalry?

 

[Loz]

@Damonjynx

'Glorantha: the Second Age' really is a very good and easy way to understanding Glorantha. It also has a detailed area for exploration (Ralios) and a scenario set in one of its more squalid regions, Dangk, to get you started on play. You can find out a great deal about the world with just this one book and, for my money, its the best introduction to Glorantha out there without having the dig deep into one particular region.

Then, if you want adventures, Pavis Rises offers several very different city-based scenarios that explore the city, the different cultures and some of Glorantha's politics. The Races book is nice if you want to really deep-dive into elves and dragonewts but, really, its not essential; you can get away with the races as presented in the core rules. Monster Coliseum, which is non-Glorantha, also has good overviews of the key Gloranthan races alongside their more traditional fantasy counterparts.

Getting into Glorantha is no heavier than getting into Elric. Don't let the history and plethora of material deter you; you really can take it at your own pace.

 

[Mikko Leho]

So, both DCC and Pazio started off by publishing adventures, but then decided they needed to publish a rulebook as well. I wonder why that is.

Because there were no basic rulebook in print for their systems. I doubt Paizo would have released Pathfinder RPG if WotC had kept D&D3.5 in print.

 

[RosenMcStern]

If you want to prove me wrong, which I accept in theory may be possible, show me a publisher that sells adventures but doesn't sell the rules.

[hand raised]

 

[PhilHibbs]

[hand raised]

How dare I argue with someone who has "Posts: 666" in his Author block? :lol:

 

[Simulacrum]

Regarding the future for MRQ, Dr Dentista and a number of other posters, myself included, feel very strongly that Mongoose doesn't need another setting, but more support for its current settings/games in the way of scenarios. We have Glorantha, the Eternal Champion line whose flagship Elric, is freakin brilliant and Wraith Recon. Let's develop those before we start playing around with more settings with no damn adventures!

Well, I hope AoT, despite being yet another setting, helps - a third of the book is adventures, the rest is designed to be full of stuff that is there to enhance play, or to offer fertile ground for adventure ideas. And that's the way I mean to carry on, given enough chance via enough sales and consequent support from Mongoose. There's a further scenario already on the blocks to offer up in S&P, and enough material for collation and revision to deliver more books with a very heavy bias towards scenarios and campaign tools. If you wanted to lift stuff from AoT adventures for other RQ settings, the easiest port is probably Elric. I'm definitely of the opinion that there is an important market in those 30- and 40-somethings who don't have time to spend many hours writing stuff and drawing maps before they attempt to run a splay session.

 

[master of reality]

I was tentetively looking at getting GLorantha to use with my Son.
He loves MRQ2 and enjoyed playing the Elric game, but he also loves playing elves and dwarves etc etc...
So I ended up just running a sort of "stock FRP world" version of the yound kingdoms with Elves, dwarves etc, which works well for him.
When I get a regular adult group together I'll run Elric as written for the most part.

The reason I said all that is when I started looking at Glorantha, I got confused which book a starting GM should get. It just isn't very clear.
After I asked on here about it I was told there's a couple of different ages (correct me if I'm wrong).
was also told if I wanted to use additional races such as Ducks and stuff (which I thought were core races) I would need to buy another book.
At that point it was just all too much work and felt like I was going to have to buy lots of books to run Glorantha.
IMO opinion, speaking as someone who still knows little about Glorantha, if I can't buy one world book that offers the core races (and I consider Ducks to be core, I'm sure they were many years ago when I played RQ) and clearly lays out the basics then I just get scared off and get something else.

I need as a starting GM for a gameworld to have the basic information with a starting area laid out for me, preferably with a start scenario to help me get the mood right.
Glorantha just doesn't do that for me and I'm not new to RPGs, I've been playing and running RPGs since the early 80s.
I've run, Rolemaster, stormbringer, Spacemaster, Hawkmoon, PAthfinder, HARP, CoC many other games.
I've used various published fantasy gameworlds and the "boxed set" or main worldbooks have been written assuming the GM knows nothing about the world.
Now I haven't actually read any of the books for Glorantha, but I STILL don't know as a starting gm for Glorantha where to start.
Which book? Why do I get the feeling I have to buy multiple books if I wnat to just get a start running Glorantha?
It just turns me off using the setting.
I may have it all wrong, but these are my first impressions and if I feel that way and I want Mongoose to do well, you can be sure those who are more casual about it have a good chance of feeling the same way.
I just find Glorantha not approachable as a new GM to the setting.

As Loz points out, all you need to get started in Glorantha Second Age is the book "Glorantha: The Second Age Core RuleBook." It doesn't really mention Ducks, but the other major races, such as Trolls, Mostali (dwarves) and Dragonnewts are covered. The detailed account of Ralios alone should provide enough information to start your adventures in Glorantha. I could easily spend several sessions just exploring Ralios.
The Races book is nice but definitely not necessary. Once you get immersed in this world, though, you'll probably want to get "Cults of Glorantha", but this book isn't necessary for your basic "let's seek the magic amulet in the mountains near the Troll caves" kind of scenario.

What I think might make Glorantha more accessible are short, inexpensive scenarios. Pretty much all of the Glorantha books are either source books providing more details about the setting or the grand campaign book Pavis Rises. I played AD&D as a teenager, and all those relatively cheap scenario booklets made getting together for a game much easier. Mongoose offers these beefy volumes on Glorantha, which for fans such as myself is fantastic, but for those new to the setting they might seem a bit overwhelming. However, an inexpensive, 20 page, paper back, scenario book might just whet their appetite. Having some ready made scenarios that don't take too long to read would really boost the amount of playing I do.

 

[master of reality]

Speaking of short scenarios for Glorantha, I could swear that a book of short Glorantha scenarios was going to be published, but I don't see it on the RuneQuest products page.

Matt, you mentioned in this thread a problem with the number of Abiding books printed versus the number sold. Other game companies such as GMT use a pre-order system (GMT calls theirs the P500) to determine whether there are enough orders to justify printing a game. Perhaps, Mongoose needs to start doing this.

 

[Deleriad]

Don't forget that there are already 3 free Gloranthan scenarios available via Living Glorantha. In the last few S&Ps there have also been at least 3 scenarios which are either set in Glorantha or can be set in Glorantha. For example, my Devil's Gulch scenario can be set in the same location as Peter Walton's initiation scenario and the Orlanthi Living Glorantha scenario (Flowers in her hair) is set not far from there as well. It would be easy to run all three one after the other.

 

[languagegeek]

I wonder how many newcomers to RuneQuest (like myself) have interest in a Glorantha setting, or if the ones buying the supplements are the long-time fans. I bought the Glorantha Core Setting Book and Cults of Glorantha. I treat the (awesome) Cults book as a generic source for stats on my own cults, and I like the idea of powerful group messing about in myths to change the here and now, so that concept has been grabbed. However all of this could have been done in a setting-neutral "Cults" core book which would be much easier to adapt to other campaigns.

The Setting book I got about 1/3 of the way through and then, to be honest, chose to move on to something else. The world didn't grab my attention and has a perhaps old-fashioned feel to it that seems out of touch with the kind of gaming I want to do. It's uncool.

"But wait!" you say, "Glorantha is totally cool, and here's why...". It doesn't come across that way, at least not to me. I read it, think about what I could do in the setting and I agree, yeah I guess it is pretty wild, but I'm still not gonna play it.

A) It doesn't look cool. If it's a high magic, gritty world where great cults are vying for control over the world, it should look that way. And if 2nd age is bronze age-esque, make it look bronze age with Minoan or Mesopotamian (or something) style art; the middle-ages vanilla fantasy look is inappropriate and dull. How would the Sumerians draw trolls or dragonnewts? That would provide a lot of evocative feel IMO to a setting which, if it is really that amazing, show me, there are piles of published settings out there to compete with. A rule set, I can take-or-leave the design concept to some degree, but a setting like this one has gotta look powerful and dramatic otherwise people move on to something that does. I think the cover of Age of Treason is great and it helps me get a gist of what the setting will be like.

B) It's hard to identify with the inhabitants of Glorantha, who are these people? There's a LOT of history and philosophy, but I don't get a sense of life actually going on. Not that I want to play an average-joe character, but it reads like a history book more than a setting. If I'm going to be a PC, who am I? What do I do?

C) These days I'm not going to devote lots and lots of time to learning a fictional history. There are too many planet-earth histories that I can spend my time on – Vikings works because I learn about a setting and something tied in many ways to the real-world. It's not that "I can't wrap my head around Glorantha" which I hear a lot of and is pretty condescending to be fair, it's that I don't have the time or inclination. There's too much detail, too much history, not enough blank spaces on the map that say "Unknown".

D) I realize from previous conversations that a new version of RQ requires Glorantha to go with it lest the multitude storms the gates in protest. I certainly have nothing to say about this as someone from outside the RQ culture – but maybe it's us outsiders who are the new market. I think the apparently poor sales show that interest in the setting (as presented) just isn't there amongst new-to-RQ players. I don't know how 3rd age Glorantha is doing in other product lines, maybe the finite number of Glorathophiles who exist are playing those games.

Regardless, I'm going to stick with the RQII system (and its cousins) for the long haul. It does everything I want it to and more. If Mongoose pulls out of RQII, I hope the other publishers carry on and keep my credit cards busy. I hope the creators of the game stick with it too and continue to line my bookshelves with their work. I hope RQII isn't like a decent science fiction TV show - the plug gets pulled just as it was getting good.

 

[danskmacabre]

As Loz points out, all you need to get started in Glorantha Second Age is the book "Glorantha: The Second Age Core RuleBook." It doesn't really mention Ducks, but the other major races, such as Trolls, Mostali (dwarves) and Dragonnewts are covered. The detailed account of Ralios alone should provide enough information to start your adventures in Glorantha. I could easily spend several sessions just exploring Ralios.

So what's actually IN "The Second Age Core RuleBook" ?
Are there any towns cities etc laid out?
any mini scenarios?
Or is it just races, cultures, maps etc?

 

[master of reality]

As Loz points out, all you need to get started in Glorantha Second Age is the book "Glorantha: The Second Age Core RuleBook." It doesn't really mention Ducks, but the other major races, such as Trolls, Mostali (dwarves) and Dragonnewts are covered. The detailed account of Ralios alone should provide enough information to start your adventures in Glorantha. I could easily spend several sessions just exploring Ralios.

So what's actually IN "The Second Age Core RuleBook" ?
Are there any towns cities etc laid out?
any mini scenarios?
Or is it just races, cultures, maps etc?

The first 108 pages is an overview of the geography, major races, major human societies, and the two major empires of Glorantha. Although a necessary part of any description of Glorantha, it's probably not the most inspiring in terms of running actual adventures. For that you need to read pages 109 to 186, the Ralios Campaign Setting. In this section the cities of Kustria and Dangk are laid out and described with some detail. Unfortunately, there are no mini scenarios but there are plenty of scenario hooks and stats for important non-player characters. The next section (pages 187 to 244) is entitled "Gloranthan Adventurers". This is probably my favorite section of the book. It's basically a discussion on how to role-play Gloranthan characters. It describes the four main human races, as well as the various languages and cultural attitudes and how they might influence what characters say and do. The rest of the book is about Gloranthan magic.
When reading this book for the first time, you might want to read the first 31 pages, and then I recommend just skimming through the book to page 108. As you read the section on Ralios, you might be inspired to flip back and read certain sections about Gloranthan history or a major human culture, but it's just as easy to focus on Ralios and ignore the rest of Glorantha.

 

[master of reality]

Don't forget that there are already 3 free Gloranthan scenarios available via Living Glorantha. In the last few S&Ps there have also been at least 3 scenarios which are either set in Glorantha or can be set in Glorantha. For example, my Devil's Gulch scenario can be set in the same location as Peter Walton's initiation scenario and the Orlanthi Living Glorantha scenario (Flowers in her hair) is set not far from there as well. It would be easy to run all three one after the other.

Oh, thanks! I'll check them out.

 

[carandol]

... If you want to prove me wrong, which I accept in theory may be possible, show me a publisher that sells adventures but doesn't sell the rules.

Cakebread & Walton with Clockwork & Chivalry?

Not *quite* true - the C&C worldbook could be considered the "rulebook" in our case, though obviously you need the RQII rulebook too. But sales of the adventures aren't that far behind the worldbook, and while we're not likely to make our fortunes on C&C, we're not about to stop producing it either (though being a 2-man outfit working from home probably helps there - our overheads are very low!)

We made a conscious decision to base our adventures (in terms of structure and richness of of background material) on things like the Warhammer FRP "Enemy Within" Campaign and Call of Cthulhu, both of which seem to have made a success of selling adventures - partly because people will buy them to read even if they never get round to running them. You're getting a lot more than a dungeon with a key and a list of locations, which might be fun to run but is dull as ditchwater to read.

Having said that, our next RPG, Abney Park's Airship Pirates, will be a rulebook!

 

[DamonJynx]

So, both DCC and Pazio started off by publishing adventures, but then decided they needed to publish a rulebook as well. I wonder why that is.

Because there were no basic rulebook in print for their systems. I doubt Paizo would have released Pathfinder RPG if WotC had kept D&D3.5 in print.

Goodman Games have been publishing Dungeon Crawl Classics (inexpensive soft cover adventures, which are exactly as the name implies) for many years now, for all the iterations of the D&D rules (older versions I believe are available on their website). I don't know the complete history of the company, but I do know they also publish adventures (under some sort of license I assume from Chaosium) for Call of Cthulu, as well as possibly some of their own games, which up until now, were not Fantasy based. Why they have decided to release their own RPG based on the D&D 3.x rules is anybody's guess, perhaps Joseph Goodman isn't happy with D&D 4E and wants to pursue his own take on how "D&D" should be played.

Paizo on the other hand is a direct off-shoot of WoTC D&D brand. WoTC in around 2005 decided not to continue publishing the magazines, Dungeon and Dragon so they started Paizo Publishing to continue this. It could be, and this only speculation on my part, that was when their creative efforts were going into 4th Edition and their digital offerings and they wanted their in-house staff focused in that area. Paizo started the Pathfinder line of adventures and accessories in an effort to build their business and please their share holders (WoTC/Hasbro?) Once WoTC announced 4th Edition that was when Paizo seriously looked at revamping the 3.5 D&D ruleset. In essence, this is no different from the re-vamp from MRQ1 to MRQ2, they put their own spin on some of the issues with the D&D 3.5 engine. So the adventures for both Goodman and Paizo came well before they published their rules. Let's not forget, they're publishers and they make money selling books, whether they be 32 page adventures or 320 page rule books, a book is a book.

 

[danskmacabre]

The first 108 pages is an overview of the geography, major races, major human societies, and the two major empires of Glorantha. Although a necessary part of any description of Glorantha, it's probably not the most inspiring in terms of running actual adventures. For that you need to read pages 109 to 186, the Ralios Campaign Setting. In this section the cities of Kustria and Dangk are laid out and described with some detail. Unfortunately, there are no mini scenarios but there are plenty of scenario hooks and stats for important non-player characters. The next section (pages 187 to 244) is entitled "Gloranthan Adventurers". This is probably my favorite section of the book. It's basically a discussion on how to role-play Gloranthan characters. It describes the four main human races, as well as the various languages and cultural attitudes and how they might influence what characters say and do. The rest of the book is about Gloranthan magic.
When reading this book for the first time, you might want to read the first 31 pages, and then I recommend just skimming through the book to page 108. As you read the section on Ralios, you might be inspired to flip back and read certain sections about Gloranthan history or a major human culture, but it's just as easy to focus on Ralios and ignore the rest of Glorantha.

Oh ok, thank for the guide.
I might grab that book at some stage.
It;s mostly for me to run some stuff using MRQ2 for my son, who prefers running Elves and stuff.
He likes Elric, but really many of the concepts in Elric are a bit too adult for him, so I tone it down for him.
Having a fantasy world that is more "Stock fantasy" and directly compatible with MRQ2 would be nice, so I'll try this at some stage.
When he gets older, I'll introduce him back to the Elric RPG as it was intended..

 

[master of reality]

Don't forget that there are already 3 free Gloranthan scenarios available via Living Glorantha. In the last few S&Ps there have also been at least 3 scenarios which are either set in Glorantha or can be set in Glorantha. For example, my Devil's Gulch scenario can be set in the same location as Peter Walton's initiation scenario and the Orlanthi Living Glorantha scenario (Flowers in her hair) is set not far from there as well. It would be easy to run all three one after the other.

Okay, I just downloaded the adventures from http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/living-glorantha.php
I only skimmed through them, but they look good.
"Flowers in her Hair" is exactly 20 pages.
Thanks again.