Sneak Attack style AND Two-Weapon Combat? Please Help

[Citrean]

Is there any restriction to this? Right now one of my players has two Poniard is sneak attacking with Finesse, does he first off get to roll two "extra damage" as a result?

I am looking over the rules and searching for this, we have not begun our game yet but I feel his character might be a bit on the cheesy side. Before I take matters into my own hands I wanted to know if I am not interpreting the rules correctly.

Changed my question a bit since found part of the answer.

 

[Sutek]

Nothing that prevents using two poniards, sneak attacking with each, and getting the bonus damage dice for each successfull hit.

Hes going to use his DEX to hit instead of his STR, and that means he doesn't get STR bonus to AP (not that he's concerned with AP since he's Finessing everything). Just keep in mind that (A) poniards have no edge and (B) if he doesn't generate a total attack result that is higher than his target's DV + armor DR, then the hit isn't successful and no damage is dealt. Just by looking through the feats or boosting NPC DV you can make it much tougher for your pesky poniard-meister to deal out death. Couple that with encouters where enemies have either reach or numbers (or both!) and that dual poniard sneak attack isn't going to last long.

 

[Trodax]

There is no limitation against combining two-weapon fighting with sneak attack. It's a pretty powerful combination. Just remember that a Thief doesn't get Two-Weapon Combat Proficiency for free, so he'll be at a bit of penalty unless he gets the feat (or multiclasses to a class that gets it for free).

A 20th level Thief with Two-Weapon Combat, Improved Two-Weapon Combat and 2 poinards will have 6 attacks, all of which could be potential sneak attacks (dealing 1d6+Str+10d6 sneak damage each!). Did I mention that it's a pretty powerful combination...?

...if he doesn't generate a total attack result that is higher than his target's DV + armor DR, then the hit isn't successful and no damage is dealt.

No, if he rolls less than DV+DR (but more more than DV of course!), it is still a hit, but armour is applied in full. Given enough sneak damage chances are he'll still be doing some damage.

 

[quigs]

No, if he rolls less than DV+DR (but more more than DV of course!), it is still a hit, but armour is applied in full. Given enough sneak damage chances are he'll still be doing some damage.

Not quite. If you miss a finesse attack but hit the target's normal defence, you still hit and deal damage, but you don't get to add your Str modifier to the AP of the weapon/attack. So with a poinard his AP will be a lousy 1.

I would prefer to figure out a way to outsmart your PC's rather than metagame against their tactics. If the player put that much time and effort into making an efficient combatant, I would not penalize him for it or make NPC's that can essentially cancel out his ability. Rather, I would put him up against something that could either humble him, or beat him at his own game. An efficient and challenging NPC will get more respect from PC's, especially if they have heard of him/her or his/her deeds. Use that reputation check people!

 

[Citrean]

Having never used the Conan system prior, I appreciate your responses. It was confusing to me, the Thief progression chart only shows +1d6/+1d8 attack so I assumed it restricted the number of sneak attacks since it goes up every other level.

 

[quigs]

Just make sure if he's fighting 2 handed, he either has the Two-Weapon Combat feat or is taking the -2/-2 penalty to his attacks. This is an easy thing to miss since most of the classes get this feat for free. Thieves do not.

 

[urdinaran]

I'm a little confused at some of the responses...

Is it being suggested that using two weapons allows a sneak attack per weapon used to attack?

If this is the case, I believe it is wrong. I don't think you add sneak attack damage per # of attacks you get in a round; you meet the criteria for sneak attack, and do the appropriate damage.

This is the way I understand it:

1 attack/damage for main weapon
1 attack/damage for off-hand weapon
+ appropriate sneak attack damage

I'm at work right now so I can't be 100% on this, but i'm sure it works the same way in d20.

 

[Citrean]

urdinaran- I had the same impression as you just described concerning this interpretation of the rules, but I thought perhaps I missed something.

I still do not see enough within the rules to support the two handed usage of sneak attack.


AE pg. 64

Level 1 thief: Sneak Attack Style, Sneak Attack +1d6/+1d8, Trap Disarming

"The extra damage is +1d6/+1d8 at 1st level and an additional 1d6/+1d8 every two levels thereafter."

This clearly defines how many d6/d8 be used per attack, and at what levels the extra dice roll increases. Does this seem well balanced that it is doubled right off the bat from level 1? I don't think so.

I'm not one to just shut something out without careful consideration, thats part of why I brought this question to the forum here to you who have more experience with Conan.

 

[quigs]

As far as the d20 SRD is concerned and the WotC errata files, any character using sneak attack can apply his sneak attack damage to every attack they make, as long as their target still qualifies for the sneak attack.

So if your thief has 3 attacks per round and is flanking his target, all his attacks that hit will EACH do sneak attack damage. OUCH!

Its just like if you power attack with 3 attacks, it applies to them all, not just the first one.

 

[argo]

Does the guy with Power Attack add his bonus damage once per round? No, he adds it once per attack.

Does the guy with Weapon Specialisation add his bonus damage once per round? No, he adds it once per attack.

Same thing with sneak attack, says so right there in the rules:

Any time at which the thief's target is unable to dodge or parry, or when the theif flanks the target, the thief's attack deals extra damage.

IOW, if an attack qualifies for Sneak Attack damage then it is a sneak attack regardless of how many attacks he gets per round.

As for your fears that this might be over-powered? Don't worry about it. First of all even with the tumble skill it will not be that easy for your thief to flank so long as his opponents fight smart and don't leav their backs open (and remember, tumbling costs double the movement so don't forget to make your thief pay the price). Secondly single-class thiefs are probably the second softest characters in the game right after scholars. Just have the opposition react approriately to what happens on the battlefield. Once one of your NPC's sees the scrawny guy in black gut his best friend he is going to make it a priority on his next round to go and two-handed power attack that thief into oblivion. Most thiefs really cant' take a hit. You can also throw out monsters who grapple or who deal posion damage (or other Fort-save bassed effects) with their melee attacks; tigers, bears, giant snakes, man-apes, monsterous scorpions, cobras and other assasins with poisioned blades. All of these and more make fine melee opponents for the barbarian to show off against and any of them should rip a thief apart.

Also, although it is true that you should not try to metagame and nuter your characters abilities, it is also true that you should occasionally challenge you players by throwing them against enemies who they are weak against. Undead, constructs, oozes and plant monsters are all immune to sneak attack. Likewise any humanoid with Improved Uncanny Dodge cannot be flanked. Don't use these opponnets all the time but once in a while is ok.


So to answer your question, no TWF sneak-attack is not overpowerd. Let your player have fun and then kill him with a bardiche-wielding Corinthian mercenary. It'll be awsome, trust me 8)

Later.

 

[Citrean]

Good points, and I appreciate your thoughtful suggestions. Learning a new system can sometimes take adjusting, and I'm sure this won't be the last thing that will stump me.

For what it's worth, I have decided to let things play out with the thief as it is, and use a few of these creative suggestions as needed. Will post the log if it turns out good, might be a fun read.

 

[argo]

The best advice I can offer is not to go soft on your Thief in melee. Once your opponents see the kind of damage he is capable of they should treat him as just as big a threat as the barbarian with a greatwsord. If they respond accordingly then your thief will either have to be a very good combat tactician or else he will have a rather short life-span.

Good luck

 

[Trodax]

No, if he rolls less than DV+DR (but more more than DV of course!), it is still a hit, but armour is applied in full. Given enough sneak damage chances are he'll still be doing some damage.

Not quite. If you miss a finesse attack but hit the target's normal defence, you still hit and deal damage, but you don't get to add your Str modifier to the AP of the weapon/attack. So with a poinard his AP will be a lousy 1.

Yes, that is absolutely right.

 

[Valaryc]

i know this sneak attack discussions are not new

of course you can arguement with fighting against a "bardiche-wielding Corinthian mercenary" ...or the fact that thieves have not the best hit points... but does this makes it better ?

how often are there your bardiche wielding mercs ? and how often will your med level, two-weapon-fighting ultimate sneak attack killing thief slaughter your main npcs the plot holded back for major showdown?

even the argument "two weapon fighting" costs the thief a feat. *yawn*... and what ? one feat? it's worth it....or better...take a soldier or borderer level and get it for free....together with some more BAB, some good hit points and many more weapon and armor feats for free!

this rule and the possibility to "kill everything" is paradise for every "power gamer"....even at mid level....imagine a level 10 zingaran multiclassed thief - soldier

even if the rules allow it....in my game i do it not. it would make the thief an ultimate killing machine and seems bad balance. so i make it only the first attack may be a sneak attack.

 

[Sutek]

No, if he rolls less than DV+DR (but more more than DV of course!), it is still a hit, but armour is applied in full. Given enough sneak damage chances are he'll still be doing some damage.

Not quite. If you miss a finesse attack but hit the target's normal defence, you still hit and deal damage, but you don't get to add your Str modifier to the AP of the weapon/attack. So with a poinard his AP will be a lousy 1.

Yes, that is absolutely right.

Hmm. Didn't know that. Seems like that's a little busted. Say a thief has a huge STR, maybe +4 to damage, and something like 3d8 sneak with a 1d6 weapon. He could then do max 34 points of damage, deducting opponent DR in full were he to miss the Finesse attack. That's still well more than enough to get by normal armors, regardless of a successful Finesse. What's the big difference in 4DR reduced to 2DR after all?

I guess I'll have to look around to see If I can make the argument that Sneak Attack is a directed shot at a vital area and if it is combined with Finesse, then even a minor failure results in no damage. It feels like when "stacking " these attack modes, it should be harder to succeed fully.

I suppose this goes right back to "who deals more damage -sneak attacking thief or bardiche wielding soldier?".

 

[Tegman]

Since sneak attack damage comes from the ability to attack vital areas on the target, like the heart, throat etc. I don't allow my players to use their sneak attack damage to penetrate armor.

This is how I have house ruled sneak attack.
If it is a finesse attack and it succeeds, roll damage as usually.
But, if the finesse attack fails, but manages to hit anyway, according to the finesse rules (or it is an ordinary attack). Then the attacker first roll damage for his weapon and if it alone penetrates the armor (damage exceed the armors DR) and does at least one point of damage to the target, after DR, the attacker gets to roll and add the damage from his sneak attack dices.
In this case, if the weapon penetrates the armor, the weapon has managed to damage a vital area of the target.

I came up with this house rule since sneak attack allowed the attacker to penetrate even heavy armor. It's not Power attack, it's more of a precision attack at vulnerable areas, and that's what I want to bring out with my house rule. Armor protects vulnerable areas, that's the good thing about armor

Anyway, that's how I took care of sneak attack, it's not reduced, IMO, only made more realistic, and it's not that hard to first roll weapon damage and then, if allowed, roll for sneak attack damage.

I hope someone has use of this house rule.

 

[Taharqa]

Since sneak attack damage comes from the ability to attack vital areas on the target, like the heart, throat etc. I don't allow my players to use their sneak attack damage to penetrate armor.

This is how I have house ruled sneak attack.
If it is a finesse attack and it succeeds, roll damage as usually.
But, if the finesse attack fails, but manages to hit anyway, according to the finesse rules (or it is an ordinary attack). Then the attacker first roll damage for his weapon and if it alone penetrates the armor (damage exceed the armors DR) and does at least one point of damage to the target, after DR, the attacker gets to roll and add the damage from his sneak attack dices.
In this case, if the weapon penetrates the armor, the weapon has managed to damage a vital area of the target.

I came up with this house rule since sneak attack allowed the attacker to penetrate even heavy armor. It's not Power attack, it's more of a precision attack at vulnerable areas, and that's what I want to bring out with my house rule. Armor protects vulnerable areas, that's the good thing about armor

Anyway, that's how I took care of sneak attack, it's not reduced, IMO, only made more realistic, and it's not that hard to first roll weapon damage and then, if allowed, roll for sneak attack damage.

I hope someone has use of this house rule.

This is basically what I do, but mine is even simpler. A thief must successfully finesse an armored opponent to get sneak attack damage. That seems very realistic to me.

 

[Sutek]

Yeah, I agree. If there's any artificial armor at all then a Thief must Finesse attack in order to bypass it and deal damage with his sneak attack. It just seems logical. The flip-side is just grabbing any old weapon and bashing through, and that's what Barbarians and Soldiers do.

I'll house rule it that way too.

 

[Tegman]

This is basically what I do, but mine is even simpler. A thief must successfully finesse an armored opponent to get sneak attack damage. That seems very realistic to me.

True, after reading this, I'll update my house rule so a thief must successfully use Finesse (DV+DR) to be able to add his sneak attack damage to his attack. In essence, the assassin must find a crack in the targets armor to be able to strike at a vulnerable spot. And that's difficult on a target that wear full plate, unless he's pinned or caught flat footed.

Thanks for the good idea.

 

[kintire]

I don't believe sneak attack is overpowered as written, and I'm not convinced that reducing it is wise.

Seems like that's a little busted. Say a thief has a huge STR, maybe +4 to damage, and something like 3d8 sneak with a 1d6 weapon. He could then do max 34 points of damage, deducting opponent DR in full were he to miss the Finesse attack

but at the same time, a soldier, say, can be using power attack with his nice large weapon. If its two handed he gets half again his str bonus, and double effect from power attack. Throw in specialisation and he's handing out 2d6 (say) +18 damage. Which is up to 30, and averages 25. The thief above can get lucky and do more, but he averages 21. Whats more, the soldier gets this damage all the time, doesn't have to flank and will have a higher defence, more hits and better armour. The sneak attack is the only thing that keeps a thief competitive.