Sneak attack in 2nd edition

[Trodax]

Conan 2nd edition has a new limitation on sneak attack which I'm not 100% sure how to interpret:

A sneak attack only deals its extra damage if the attack either bypasses the target's armour or pierces the armour without adding extra damage.

Interpretation #1 - You need to inflict at least 1 point of damage after armour has been taken into account (barring any optional rule for minimum damage and such).

So, for example, suppose I'm using my arming sword to finesse attack a guy in a leather jerkin. I hit him, but not well enough to finesse past armour. However, I roll high enough on the damage roll to still inflict damage, which allows me to add my sneak attack damage.

Interpretation #2 - You need to either a) succeed with a finesse attack ("bypass"), or b) have a weapon with an AP high enough to penetrate you opponents DR ("pierce").

Under this interpretation, I would not get to add my sneak attack damage in the example above (regardless of the damage roll) because I didn't successfully finesse and I don't have a high enough AP to pierce armour.

I really think Interpretation #1 is the most intuitive, and I believe it to be correct, but the wording of the rule actually sounds more like Interpretation #2.

 

[BlackandGold]

Personally I think, you are on the right path with the first interpretation. I think, "pierces" means, that you do more Damage w/o the Sneak Attack than the Damage Reduction of your Enemy.
Considering this Rule, my Soldier with his Heavy Armor (DR 11) is getting nearly invulnerable...

 

[Mongoose Gar]

Its #1. Basically, if you can do any damage to the guy, even one point, you can add on your Sneak Attack - roll high on the damage, use Finesse to bypass armour, use a really high-AP weapon....

 

[Trodax]

That's what I thought; thanks for the quick confirmation!

 

[windman]

But why? Sneak attack was already very powerful, why does it need to be applied to every hit?

Under the old rules, it was a maneuver that took some skill to do, through a finesses attack. Now any attack that causes damage gets the sneak attack bonus?

I don't like this change.

 

[Benedict]

But why? Sneak attack was already very powerful, why does it need to be applied to every hit?

Under the old rules, it was a maneuver that took some skill to do, through a finesses attack. Now any attack that causes damage gets the sneak attack bonus?

I don't like this change.

Without having read the book, I am guessing this new rule is an additional restriction on sneak attacks. All the previous restrictions for sneak attacks will still apply, i.e., against helpless, flat-footed or flanked opponents.

 

[windman]

I thought you could bypass all those restrictions by making a finesse attack.

That is, if you use dexterity mods instead of strength mods to hit, including any DR added to the DV, then you can apply sneak attack damage for hitting a vital spot.

This new rule seems to say that you don't even need finesse to do this, just do enough damage to bypass DR. Which looks to me like any attack that causes damage allows Sneak Attack damage.

If so, I think this is too powerful.

 

[Benedict]

I thought you could bypass all those restrictions by making a finesse attack.

Wow. I wasn't aware of that. (Where can I find that rule?) But if any finesse attack can be a sneak attack, then this new rule still applies a more stringent restriction, i.e., the finesse attack has to do damage before the sneak attack damage can be added. If you aren't doing a finesse attack then the regular sneak attack restrictions still apply, plus the new restriction that you have to penetrate armour.

 

[thulsa]

Now any attack that causes damage gets the sneak attack bonus?

No no no...

The target must still be flanked or unable to dodge or parry (typically from being flat-footed) in order for sneak attack to work.

This is an additional restriction.

- thulsa

 

[windman]

Now any attack that causes damage gets the sneak attack bonus?

No no no...

The target must still be flanked or unable to dodge or parry (typically from being flat-footed) in order for sneak attack to work.

This is an additional restriction.

- thulsa

oh, okay. thats good.
wish i had the book, but i live in japan and amazon is going to take about another month to get it to me,

 

[windman]

I thought you could bypass all those restrictions by making a finesse attack.

Wow. I wasn't aware of that. (Where can I find that rule?) But if any finesse attack can be a sneak attack, then this new rule still applies a more stringent restriction, i.e., the finesse attack has to do damage before the sneak attack damage can be added. If you aren't doing a finesse attack then the regular sneak attack restrictions still apply, plus the new restriction that you have to penetrate armour.

I'm glad thulsa cleared it up for me, but I don't think you've got it quite right.

The you don't need to do more damage than the DR with a finesse attack, a finesse attack is aimed at unarmoured parts or joints or weak spots and is the damage is not absorbed by DR. The DR is added to the DV and makes it harder to hit those weak spots though.

This new rule seems to apply to conventional non-finesse sneak attacks.

Do I have this all right?

 

[Benedict]

The you don't need to do more damage than the DR with a finesse attack, a finesse attack is aimed at unarmoured parts or joints or weak spots and is the damage is not absorbed by DR. The DR is added to the DV and makes it harder to hit those weak spots though.

This new rule seems to apply to conventional non-finesse sneak attacks.

Do I have this all right?

It is still possible for the finesse attack to do no damage if the hit roll does not exceed the DV by an amount equal to the DR (and then the damage rolled does not beat the DR). Have I got that right?

 

[Trodax]

The you don't need to do more damage than the DR with a finesse attack, a finesse attack is aimed at unarmoured parts or joints or weak spots and is the damage is not absorbed by DR. The DR is added to the DV and makes it harder to hit those weak spots though.

That's the basic idea behind finesse attacks, yes, but they are actually a little more complex than this (which I think is why you were confused with what we said about sneak attack above).

To go through it from the beginning, a finesse attack works exactly as a normal melee attack, except for the following:

1) It can only be used with certain (finesseable) weapons.
2) You add Dex to your attack roll instead of Str.
3) If your attack roll equals your opponents DV+DR, the hit completely ignores his armour.
4) If you hit your opponent, but fail to roll as high as DV+DR, you may still damage him (this is the part you missed in your quote above). This is calculated exactly as if you had hit him with a normal melee attack; so you compare your AP to his DR, roll damage, and subtract his DR from this damage. One big difference, though; you don't get to add your Str bonus to AP (this basically means that your opponent will almost always get the full benefit of his DR).

Now a sneak attack is something completely different, and actually has nothing at all to do with finesse attacks. It is easy to think of the two as intertwined because they are both ways to "hit him where it hurts", but mechanically they are completely separate. This means that sneak attack works just as well with a greatsword as with a (sneaky) dagger, and you don't get any extra benefits from using a finesse attack when you try to sneak attack your opponent to death.

The best way to think about sneak attack is simply as extra bonus damage that you get to add if a) your opponent is unable to dodge or parry your attack, or b) you are flanking your opponent. (If you think of sneak attack as a special action or maneuvre, things will get confusing.)

Now, the only new thing in 2nd edition is this added restriction that you can only apply your sneak attack damage if your attack actually manages to damage your opponent first (you roll for damage normally, and if you score at least 1 point of damage you add your sneak attack damage). As Mongoose Gar stated above, it doesn't matter how you score this 1 point of damage; a regular melee attack that manages to get through armour, a successfull finesse attack that completely bypasses armour, or a failed finesse attack that still manages to hit and score high enough damage to get through armour.

Very importantly, though, as thulsa pointed out, this can still only ever happen if a) your opponent is unable to dodge or parry your attack, or b) you are flanking your opponent.

Phew, that turned out to be a long post, but I hope it clears it up.

 

[windman]

okay. that was helpful. but if a character with sneak attack makes a successful finesse attack, they apply sneak attack damage. right?

 

[Krushnak]

but if a character with sneak attack makes a successful finesse attack, they apply sneak attack damage. right?

only if you already qualify to perform the sneak attack ie; flanking the target or catching it flat footed. finesse attacking itself will not qualify you to perform a sneak attack.

 

[Trodax]

Yes, exactly what Krushnak said; you can only ever apply sneak attack damage if:

a) Your opponent is unable to dodge or parry (this can come about for a number of reasons - he is flat-footed at the start of combat, you have just successfully feinted him, he is grappling with your friend, etc.)

OR

b) You are flanking your opponent.

Whether you fight with finesse or not has nothing to do with it.

 

[Sutek]

Conan 2nd edition has a new limitation on sneak attack which I'm not 100% sure how to interpret:

A sneak attack only deals its extra damage if the attack either bypasses the target's armour or pierces the armour without adding extra damage.

I think the answer to the original question is pretty simple though, unless I'm missing something.

Bypass = getting around armor via a successful Finesse Attack
Pierces = Smashes through armor by applying AP versus DR

In the first case, Finessing makes Sneak Attack damage easier because all that is necessary is a successful Finesse Attack (Att Roll > Opp DR + DV).

In the second case, is the opponent DR was 5 and you successfully hit (not Finesse, mind you) but only deal 4pts of damage, you do not get to roll your extra Sneak damage even though you tactically qualify for a Sneak Attack (opponent denied DEX, ect.).

That conclusion may have already been reached, but I felt compeled to add my 2cents anyway...lol

 

[Trodax]

I think the answer to the original question is pretty simple though, unless I'm missing something.

Bypass = getting around armor via a successful Finesse Attack
Pierces = Smashes through armor by applying AP versus DR

In the first case, Finessing makes Sneak Attack damage easier because all that is necessary is a successful Finesse Attack (Att Roll > Opp DR + DV).

In the second case, is the opponent DR was 5 and you successfully hit (not Finesse, mind you) but only deal 4pts of damage, you do not get to roll your extra Sneak damage even though you tactically qualify for a Sneak Attack (opponent denied DEX, ect.).

That conclusion may have already been reached, but I felt compeled to add my 2cents anyway...lol

Well, what I was uncertain on was the following situations:

1) I try to sneak attack my opponent using a finesse attack. I hit him (roll higher than Defense), but fail to finesse (roll lower than Defense+DR). On the damage roll I still manage to damage him (maybe I roll 5 for damage against his leather jerkin DR of 4).
I have thus "failed to bypass his armour" (but I have still damaged him).

2) I try to sneak attack my opponent using a normal melee attack. I hit him, but unfortunately my AP is to low to pierce and halve his DR. However, on the damage roll I still manage to damage him (maybe I roll a 7 for damage against his breastplate DR of 6).
I have thus "failed to pierce his armour" (but I have still damaged him).

Mongoose Gar confirmed (in post #3 of this thread) that in both these situations I would still get to add my sneak attack damage (basically, all it takes is to give your opponent at least 1 point of damage before sneak attack). Of course, there is still the restriction (as always) that my opponent has to be unable to dodge/parry or flanked for this to happen.