Sink the Scharnhorst!

[gazman]

We've decided on fleets for this weeks 'All at sea' session.
Five point RAID level fleets.

Ev is taking a KM fleet that consists of 9, yes 9!, Z class destroyers and the Scharnhorst.

I'm running the Renown, two Leanders and two Norfolks.

We're set to play on Wednesday night, I'm scurrying around painting ships and printing ship cards.

I'll probably grab some pics of this encounter.
Si

 

[jkd]

Sounds like fun. Can't wait to see a battle report!

 

[Lord David the Denied]

How do you plan to handle the destroyer swarm? Surely your cruisers don't give you enough guns to sink them before they get into torpedo range...?

 

[gazman]

I'm hoping to use the cruisers as bigger destroyers really. I've got two torpedoes in each cruiser to the enemies one and they need that to get the Renown.
Also if I get past them then they need to return to help the Scharnhorst.
I feel the Renown has some hefty damage to get through before it goes down. But torpedoes can quite quickly reduce that.

I fear I may be releasing military intelligence, but my plan is to line up a cruiser at each destroyer squadron and have one floating free to threaten the Scharnhorst with two torpedos or come to the aid of the others.

If I can make the one destoyer in each squadron pop off a torpedo to kill a cruiser, I can then get two back at the destroyers who don't. I'll have to position well to use both port and starboard tubes...
If it goes to plan then hopefully I'll sink two and leave one with no real threat left.

Then the Renown slinks in and crushes them with secondaries, while my spare cruiser hunts the Scharnhorst with aid from the Renowns big guns.

That's the plan any how...

Si

 

[gazman]

I lost - I got pulped really. QUite a long game ten, maybe eleven turns.

I stuck to my plan - run the cruisers through the middle straight at the Scharnhorst.

My cruisers were dead meat - trying to break through the middle meant they were surrounded by nine fast and hungry Destroyers. Eight incoming torpedoes meant I was crippled before too long with no turrets to respond and secondaries reduced to 1 AD.

Six returning torpedoes were useless as the destroyers are so hard to hit. I think only one actualy hit.

So I've got four cruisers limping towards the Scharnhorst with only one with functional turrets - two of the others are crippled and one has a systems hit that means roll four to operate a turret. Still have two torpedoes left though in the leading cruiser.
Meanwhile the destroyers just swarm around the Renown pumping 24 dice secondary attacks in every go. Causing at least two or three damage points every turn.
That coupled with long range broadsides from the Scharnhorst means the life is ebbing out of the Renown.
I make a dash to join my limping cruiser so I can unleash the Renowns torpedoes at the Scharnhorst. He evades and continues to pop destroyer secondaries in every go - although I have sunk three!

The Scharnhorst just picks off cruiser after cruiser and then a round of secondaries and two front turrets sink the crippled Renown.

End result:
RN fleeet - all sunk
KM fleet - 3 destroyers sunk (1 point)

What have I learnt??

Destroyers are almost unhittable and hence unsinkable.
Having twice as many ships in the table in a war of attrition is a big advantage.
Cruisers are pretty much pointless - slower than destroyers, easier to hit and with weaponry that can't really hit destoyers and is innefective against larger targets...
Secondaries are killers when fired en masse.
The agile trait means destroyers can close and get torpedoes off, but position themselves to avoid the flank attack return.

I ponder how nasty destroyers would have been without the new ten inch rule...


I'm pondering my actions and looking for a rematch - maybe even the same fleets to see if there IS a way to kill the destroyer swarm...

Back to Wings fo war tonight - at least I win that sometimes!!
Si

 

[DM]

Closing on the enemy is a bad move too. Last time I tried a Renown vs. S&G scenario Renown stood off and shelled the "twins" into oblivion. Obviously a bit harder with those destryers knocking about, but letting them come to you rather than dashing out to meet them is, in some cases, the way to go

 

[EgstonVonBrick]

Si,



Götterdämmerung!



Yep, vell and truly smashed!



You must be feeling a little bruised, especially after our previous battle, with its cunning German sneakiness (i.e. us fluffing up the points and giving me and extra ship!).



Its currently looking like the war could have taken a turn for the better - oops that should read worse!



The swarm does seem awesomely powerful.



I had expected that my three three-ship squadrons would whiz past, fire off their torpedoes and then just wobble around achieving nothing, except hopefully becoming a distraction to your big guns and take some of the heat of the Scharnhorst!



But the little things are so fast and agile that after doing what was planned with their powerful torpedoes were then highly effective with their secondary's.



I think the RN option is to play to type and steam towards the Scharnhorst, but those secondary's allow for a constant stream of fire, especially as they can move so fast and very agile and are very hard to hit.



As we found out, if all 9 are in range you can get a nice little handful (18?) of attack dice to be rolled! No chance of a critical but a constant stream of cumulative damage, whilst the Scharnhorst pummeled from a distance.



All i can think of is for the RN to (try and) ignore them, steam in and get your torpedoes off! But even some got through i had a lovely beefy torpedo belt and also forgot i had torpedoes i could have loosed off!



Even if the Scharnhorst was sunk it would probably take a lot of turns to kill me off - unless you then just steamed of the end of the board - job done!



Is this another campaign type we could run?



My thoughts;



Maybe if we played that a 6 (if in range) was always a hit?



Maybe if the Hun had used their navy more effectively this would have been the result!



Also in both of the games we have played the secondaries have seemed to be quite powerful (and i don't think this is just down to lucky dice rolling)



The 10inch rule was obviously an attempt to address some of this and without it.... would I have lost any ships?



Am i agile even if i haven't used my full movement?



Good game tho, and I have been surprised how much fun its been when the only scenery we have is a bit of blue cloth (now has a few oil spills due to provisions getting on the table) - the water plumes and torpedo markers are good and as you say next game we'll mark our paths with some chalk as my destroyers must have nearly performed a figure of eight! Some ship wrecks would be nice!



I'm tempted for a re-run but also fancy some wolf-pack action and Flower class action, if we can find a definition for these ships.



Cheers

Ev

 

[gazman]

Ev
You've found my hideout! 8)

Re DMs comment about closing being a bad idea...

I had no choice, destroyers are invisible otherwise. Moving at 8 inches they are 6 +1 to hit, so unhittable. :x

Even if I use the Norfolks and get a radar lock on, this only works at EXTREME range, and that is -2 on AD, so back to a seven...
If the destroyers do inadvertantly turn beam on and get me a six to hit chance, this is only effective at +30 inches.

Max range on my Norfolk cruisers is 31".
No way are the destroyers going to just sit side on in my 1" band and wait to get hit.

Once within 30" and moving at 8" the destroyers are impossible to hit unless they close to 10" and then I'm in torpedo hell. :x

It's a tough one: :wink:

Can't shoot destroyers from a distance.
If they close they kill me...

It's the -1 Fast moving target modifier that makes them so darned hard to hit. That and the fact there are only TWO positive modifiers to negate that negative one.
Beam on - not likely as the destroyers are steaming towards me.
Radar - only effective at Extreme range when the -2 extreme range modifier cancels it out!
It's sevens all the way to torpedo range.


As for the next game - I want to play something similar. I need to figure out how to beat the swarm!
I have some ideas I want to explore.... :idea:

As for convoy raiding - I've just completed a Liberty ship master and I have the tramp frieghters cast up. So let me get about 40 - 50 done and painted and then I'LL have the destroyers and see if the wolfpack can get through.

Flower class corvettes will be tiny in 1:6000, maybe I can knock some of these up...But I'd rather have a few J class...

Si

 

[DM]

Re DMs comment about closing being a bad idea...

A lot depends on the playing area you are fighting on and whether you have a "scrolling" battlefield. If you are confined to a table its often not an option. Howeever, if you are playing in a more "realistic" environment then the options available to you are, of course, wider.

In addition, if I was faced by a pile of German destroyers I'd wait until the weather got a bit rough and they all had to go home

 

[gazman]

DM, how does a bigger battlefield help, I can't see it myself??

I can't get a shot on a destroyer unless it gets within 10". It's not possible unless they sit broadside on.

Can you elucidate?



If you're playing Japanese, I'd imagine any ship on the table is doomed, with no response, to the Japanese destroyers with the long range torpedos.

With 5 points of RAID I can have 15!

Ooooh, I need OOB - and I hope there's something in there to limit fleet composition and make destroyers at least hittable!

I can see tourneys dominated by Japanese destroyer fleets!

Can aircraft impact on Destroyers??
Does the 10" rule apply to bombs?

EgstonVonBrick
I'm ordering a bumper bundle of Fubukis for the return match!

SI

 

[Soulmage]

You could always try the house rule we use for rolling hits higher than 6.

On rolls of 6, re-roll the dice. If the second roll equals:

4 = then it is a 7
5 = then it is an 8
6 = then it is a 9

This makes it rare, but not impossible to hit one of those destroyers with the 7+ target.

 

[gazman]

That is an option...

I do like to play the rules as written as far as possible though.

My thinkning at the moment is that the rules mechanics don't really marry up with the fleet selection options.

When you get a sharp minded tourney player structuring his fleet to the most advantageous formation for competitive play, you are going to get these super lists around. Games like DBM, WAB and FoW suffer from 'superlist' syndrome and it makes the game rather harsh for tourney play. Games like BKC and DBA have armies that are not affected by list selection in this way, but with different mechanics.

I think Ev and I would end up both playing 15 Japanese destroyers in the end, in an effort to build the most indestructible force.

I think in historical scenarios and in scenarios where you don't have to sink every enemy ship there might be less of an issue. But I'm guessing that scratch tourney type games where you need to anhiliate the other fleet will be the most popular VaS games played.

I've put about £200 into this game so far and it's the first time I've ever played, enjoyed and played again, Naval wargaming.

I'm looking forward to OOB to see if the suprlisting wil be reduced in any way - with all those other ships and navies in there I hope there would have been some attention paid to how a fleet is constructed.

How ever much I dislike meddling, we might have to draft some house rules on fleet composition...


Si

 

[EgstonVonBrick]

Si,

>>I'm ordering a bumper bundle of Fubukis for the return match!

Hmmm, well can i have a CV-4 or something similar and stand off 200+ miles and send over a larger swarm of 86 Dauntles SBD's?

How many points is that?

And would they have any effect?

As mentioned i'm not convinced that the size of the board will matter as with the destroyers speed they can outrun most things - maybe you would dilute the effect of the swarm by splitting up my three squadrons over atlantic like distances but i think that i would then pick you off swarm like one by one as, you still can't hit me and you would be even more exposed as your other ships would be beyond max range!

Maybe we should try the 6 modifier rule - or do some research and work out how many of these little devils the Hun actually ever put to sea rather than mooring them up in port and polishing them! As we may have to live with the fact that they are damn hard to hit but in relaity were never deployed en masse!

I know your not keen on the Yank stuff so i'll buy some (plus aeroplanes) and the Jap destoyers - if you can paint them for me
I'll even supply the two pence pieces for the bases?

Did your stuff come through yet for our BKC campaign?

Cheers
Von Brick

 

[DM]

DM, how does a bigger battlefield help, I can't see it myself??

The DD's aren't mission critical elements so you don't need to engage them. They have a speed advantage but not a large one. Obviously it depends on what the German player wants to do with S&G. Limited table space and artificial time limits do of course impose greatly.

And I'm also commenting more from the perspective of gaming with "other rules", not necessarily VAS

 

[gazman]

DM - I guess my view is distorted from playing the Victory at all costs scenario where you need to sink all of the enemy.

Ships you can't hit are very difficult to sink.

I think destroyers SHOULD be hard to hit. I don't think there is anything wrong with the core rules. It's the way a fleet is compiled that worries me. I don't think it will be long before you get mostly Japanese navies at competitions.....

Si

 

[DM]

The problem is, as with many rules, that a simple "pick up" game has very little bearing on relaity and so you often don't get an appreciation for why fleets (or armies) are composed the way they are.

 

[gazman]

DM
You're dead right. We'll have a think over a way to restrict the fleet choices a bit to reflect reality - give those destroyers a reason to be there.
I'm no expert on naval, but I would expect a destoyer to be an escort mainly?

SI

 

[Swiss Tony]

Si,

Have a look at the November tournament pack it has some extra rules for seconary guns and firing within 10" which make it easier to deal with destroyers. I think they will be appearing in OOB so they or something like them will be offical soon.

If you can make it dome to Richmond on a Monday night my Italian fleet is always up for a game.

Tony

 

[Lord David the Denied]

DM
You're dead right. We'll have a think over a way to restrict the fleet choices a bit to reflect reality - give those destroyers a reason to be there.
I'm no expert on naval, but I would expect a destoyer to be an escort mainly?

SI

Destroyers screen capital ships from opposing destroyers' torpedoes, provide anti-air cover and make torpedo attacks on enemy capital ships. They also provide ASW cover for fleets and hunt enemy submarines as part of small task forces.

 

[Soulmage]

Have a look at the November tournament pack it has some extra rules for seconary guns and firing within 10" which make it easier to deal with destroyers. I think they will be appearing in OOB so they or something like them will be offical soon.

He mentions the "new 10 inch rule" so I think they were playing with the tournament pack rules updates, and finding that invincible destroyers were still a problem under that rule.

This was one of the things that was debated to death in the Tournament Pack Rules thread. Some feel that the 10" rule and ignoring speed modifiers for secondaries is sufficient to correct the destroyer problem. Others of us feel differently.