[br] vuldrok vs hazat

tneva82

Mongoose
So. Second game and we decided to "up the antes". 1500 points it is! This ought to give us more toys to play with. I decided to continue my vuldrok experiments while friend switched to one of the fleets he's been eyeballing, namely hazat.

vuldrok:

slatra konungr-class dreadnought 600
langskip class destroyer 180
langskip class destroyer 180
hadruk class frigate 100
hadruk class frigate 100
hadruk class frigate 100
8xmyrkwyrm class explorer 240

I opted to bring the big guy(though three more langskips did tempt. Or try some galleons. But in the end...It's a frigging DREADNOUGHT! Look at the size of that thing! Plus it's packing more guns than I care to count, has bucketload of hit points, armour 3 and since I could afford it and had already tested langskips(and had them here too) I went for the coolness. Albeit trio of destroyers might be better option. Anyway 2 langskips to give me more shooting power, trio of hadruks to deal with any fighters and knock out shields and then 8 myrkwyrm kamikaze ships.

hazat:

Canai class cruiser 400
trafalgar class carrier 320
manticore class destroyer 180
manticore class destroyer 180
manticore class destroyer 180
12xharpy class torpedo bomber 240

So he brought in cruiser and carrier loaded up with harpy's(damn minmaxing ;) Didn't bring any fighters since they would be totally useless against my fleet!). Trio of destroyers for pretty small fleet.

This time scenario was space superiority. Guess I need to consider boarding action as well as now there's clear bonus for capturing the ship rather than ramming it to destruction!

Deployment:

Vuldruk deployed as far ahead as possible pointing straight toward enemy. With ranges being what they are hanging back is definetely NOT recommended. I kept myrkwyrms intermixed with other ships as I didn't want those torpedo bombers get free chances to nib out of retaliation range. Hazat meanwhile deployed in broadway formation similar to how he deployed last time. Superior range so maintain it! Carrier kept further back to keep it hopefully tad safer than in front line.



Too bad the pictures are bit hard to decipher due to ship graphs being what they are.

Turn 1: Hazat won initiave. I lost initiave roll?-) Hopefully it gets back to what it was last game :)

As last game I moved explorers first(full speed ahead) with blast doors closed. I might be playing these too simple and should try to manouver from where they can't shoot but let's see if I can get couple against that juicy cruiser! Besides the threat of that ramming ought to keep their guns pointed at the dirt cheap explorers.

Threat certainly made the hazat reshuffle further toward left muttering something nasty about speed 16" kamikaze runners. Torpedo bombers moved between the two fleets(with 3 more being launched at the end phase).

Shooting. Canai fired at one explorer and caused whopping 3 points of damage with the turret weapons. Bless the armour+CBD! (oh and crappy to hit rolls help too! Only 3 3+ out of 6 dices...).

Dreadnought fired toward incoming fighters(only thing it could shoot...). One managed to dodge his way to safety, one managed to be recovered by the carrier and one was blown out of the sky for good.

Manticore 1: 1 damage to damaged explorer. This time what botched it was his rolls vs armour. Langskip knocked another fighter back to carrier while second manticore, with help of THREE criticals, finished off the damaged myrkwyrm. Second langskip knocked yet another fighter back to carrier(sheesh couldn't they just DIE? 4 rolls, 3 success at 5+. Dammit!). One point of damage to myrkwyrm from manticore and carrier failed to damage anything and that was it for the turn(after more fighters were launched).



Turn 2: Vuldrok won the initiave. Yey!

Forces kept approaching though mainly due to vuldroks which prepared for next turn mayhem. One hadruk used moon to slingshot itself bit forward. Torpedo bombers moved to shoot at myrkwyrms that were aiming toward the capital ships. Initiave sink advantage Vuldroks possessed was very telling.

Shooting. I didn't want my precious myrkwyrms being blasted too easily before ramming so I opened up with dreadnought(which was still nicely behind. Stupid speed 8" :D). This proved particulary effective knocking 3 fighters off which failed carrier save. Clear the sky!

Remaining 2 fighters, working on principle of better to use weapons while still alive, fired at nearest myrkwyrm. ONE damage got through but 3 critical hits(we presume CBD saves damage but critical hits still come in play. Though CBD can save extra damage from criticals right?). These caused weapon and reactor(one damage through) and ignored shield critical. That wasn't that bad. Especially as now they have to reload.

With fighters being neutralised atleast for a while I decided to start dealing with manticores. First langskip fired turret at it and caused 5 damage. 2 of them being criticals! These were reactor and shields. VERY good!

Said manticore fired at damaged myrkwyrm causing 3 damage through. These buggers are tough. Not even crippled yet.

Langskip #2 fired at damaged manticore, passing shields and causing 4 damage including crew critical.

Another manticore fired at the damaged myrkwyrm and BLEW it off. It exploded knocking out one fighter for good and one was rescued to the carrier(darn instant reload too!). One myrkwyrm was slightly damaged in the process too.

Hadruk that had used slingshot tried to take potshot toward unfired manticore but with shields on only one damage was inflicted.

Particulary crappy shooting from manticore resulted in mere 3 damage to one myrkwyrm.

Another hadruk joined in and with lucky double 6 caused both weapon and shield critical. Me being lucky!

Canai fired at two myrkwyrms crippling one(though with the turret weapons at that damaged one should have destroyed it) and few damage points to another.

Final hadruk fired at the manticore that was closest toward planet. Shields failed to work as I passed the 4+ check and caused punishing amount of damage including second level weapon critical and engine critical.

Carrier finished off the crippled myrkwyrm(cripled but still in range to ram one of the manticores next turn...) but only barely which was pretty embarrasing since it only needed 2 damage through. And had I passed one 4+ save out of 2 it would have survived. Still can't really complain ;)

3 more fighters launched(4 left in hangars still). No criticals repaired.

(note. We almost forgot to take picture so part of turn 3 was already in process. Basically the first 2 rams and carrier moving upward)



Turn 3: Critical initiave roll and...Vuldruk won. "Give me ramming speed!"

Myrkwyrm #1 rammed straight toward Canai and hit. After all told(now with corrected ramming critical rules) cruiser was adrift, crippled having suffered total of 31 damage, lacking troop, lacking shield and suffering escalate...Jeesus. I'm definetely in favour of toning these buggers!

Carrier moved toward planet hoping to avoid ram itself. Second myrkwyrm hit straight on toward uppermost manticore knocking it out. However these buggers are FAST! I first considered ramming manticore that had just moved toward my fleet but that HAD managed to move just far that 45 degree turn does not cut it. So instead I tried to ram the carrier but this time carrier managed to dodge the attempt.

Last manticore tried come about but failed the CQ9 test.

At this point I started poundering whether I should try to board them rather than explode them. More vp's!

However that cruiser has lots of marauders so I decided I'll try to destroy that instead. Still 2 myrkwyrms left. One hit it but 1 for damage resulted in more of a whimper. Second hit too and needing just 3+ to take it out rolled...2. Bleh. Guess I need to knock it out the old fashioned way then! With guns!

Rest of the Vuldruk moved in for a kill. Langskips and dreadnought not using CBD to ensure maximum shooting(Well. Dread had yet to CBD in the game after first turn).

Dreadnought opened up the festivalities firing EVERYTHING against the intact manticore. Heavy slug guns fired shield breakers busting them all and causing 6 points of damage and 2 criticals in the process. These were just reactor and engine though. Side weapons caused bucketload of damage crippling the ship and causing crew critical as well.

Still intact manticore fired turret + one broadside toward dreadnought but only caused 1 damage. Armour 3 is tough! Second broadside fired at the hadruk behind carrier causing 6 damage including engine critical. Return fire from hadruk damaged manticore badly causing also weapon critical but still not crippled.

Then came one of the most anticlimatic rolls I have seen so far in this game. Carrier opened up at the dreadnought. Caused 9 hits in total. Then armour stopped all but 2...But they were criticals! Yey! Until opponent rolled double 6...Shields...Ignored...LOL! Well okay he got 2 damage points but that was kinda...Pathetic :D

At center hadruk fired shield breakers toward almost dead cruiser with just 3 operational and knocked 2 out for now.

Canai, more out of desperation by now, tried miracle shot to do SOMETHING and opened up broadsides toward dreadnought. 7 points of damage got through armour, that's it.

Langskip knocked out the Canai out of it's misery.

Final manticore fired at hadruk but only 1 damage(plus crew critical) got through.

Torpedo bombers at north knocked out final myrkwyrm(that had failed to ram the carrier). Third torpedo bomber caused 3 points of damage to langskip.

Finally langskip fired everything at non-crippled manticore. Only 1 damage got through but that was enough to cripple the ship.

More fighters launched but game was pretty much over by now.



Turn 4: Hazat won initiave(yey...)

One manticore moved forward a bit but being crippled not much it could do. One hadruk then opted to board the non-moved manticore doing so succesfully. Another joined in the fun. Dreadnought moved toward planet turning toward it and then slingshotted itself getting the pesky carrier into right arc view. Rest of the Vuldruk ships turned as fast as they could. One langskip managed to use come about order for extra moving goodyness. Without hadruk in way it could even have tried boarding the manticore.

Shooting. Carrier opened up toward dreadnought causing 6 damage points including 3 criticals. Engine, weapon(that's annoying) and shield(yey!).

Dreadnought caused punishing damage in return but didn't cripple it. Weapon, crew and 2 engine criticals were caused though. One fighter was blown out too. Remaining 4 fired torpedo's at the monstorous ship but only got 4 damage in. Critical being shields...

One fighter had moved toward south(unable to catch with dreadnought) and fired at hadrak that had boarded manticore. 3 damage points + crew critical and was then knocked out by langskip. One boarding hadruk fired at the lone crippled manticore causing yet another shield critical and bunch of damage but return fire caused another point of damage + weapon critical. Boarded manticore fired turret at same target causing yet another weapon critical. Good thing I'm not doing that much shooting anymore eh?

Another hadruk fired at the unengaged manticore bringing it further down. Those shield crits are handy! However I then opted not to shoot with langskip. I might board it instead too!

So straight to boarding! I obviously sent everything since risk of counter charge was...Well nill! Casualties were 7 to 4 in Vuldruk's favour. Next turn finishes that bugger off.

Only ship succeeding in critical repairs(these had sucked for both of us all game) was dreadnought but it fixed both of the crits!



turn 5: Hazat won the initiave.

Not much to do. Run like hell! Vuldruk unengaged ships turned around. One hadruk and dreadnought even passing come about tests! Torpedo bombers headed toward hangars though how long hangar was alive was another thing entirely!

Shooting. Boarded manticore fired toward lone hadruk on it's left. Every shot hit but armour rolls sucked and only 5 damage and 2 criticals, one which was shield and other causing level 2 crew critical, was caused.

I didn't want to blow my prize ships and dreadnought had the carrier in front arc. So much for side guns! They fired at the carrier and somehow managed to cause just enough damage and just 2 criticals which promptly hit the parts which hadn't suffered critical yet that the bloody ship was still alive! Just one damage point not taken out...However this is actually blessing in disguise as I think I can board and capture that ship before game is over!

Boarding. I killed remaining crew, left one there, ensured that the hadruk pointing toward second manticore has full complement of crew and we were done for the turn.

3 fighters managed to reload. Carrier repaired reactor critical realising speed is of importance here(and wanting the shields back up just in case).



turn 6: hazat won initiave

Carrier ran ahead fast as it could! Which was just 3" though as he wanted to launch the fighters.

langskip grabbled manticore. Hadruk joined in fun with 2nd coming to help next turn if somehow in need of it...

Rest of ships moved around. Captured manticore used close blast doors. Reason for this came when that manticore that was about to be boarded fired at the former comrade to prevent extra victory points! However shooting was totally inefficient. Carrier missed as well and I refused to shoot.

Boarding. With 15 vs 9 it was not going to be fair fight. Casualties 6 vs 3 in Vuldruk favour.

3 torpedo bombers launched, last ones rearmed.



Turn 7: Vuldruk won initiave

Dreadnought grabbled the carrier. Hadruk

Dreadnought passed another come about so now was heading straight TOWARD it. No avoiding boarding now!

I remembered victory conditions so started to spread around my ships to grab more sections.

Carrier and fighters concentrated toward the dreadnought but only caused little damage + weapon critical. Yet another critical hit was nullified by being shield critical.

Boarding. Manticore was unsurprisingly captured. Yey! Dreadnought only managed to kill half the crew and lost 3 in process. Could I kill the crew in time?

2 more fighters launched(or can it launch while being boarded?) emptying the hangars.



turn 8:

Vuldruk fleet manouvered in position to grab more stuff. One hadruk moved at full speed and lost point of armour(as if that matters anymore).

Shooting: Carrier fired turret at one hadruk and crippled it! Whoops! Forgot it could still shoot...In return I killed one of them for good(vp's). Final torpedo run from fighters resulted in just one damage to dreadnought.

Finally big one. Could I capture the carrier or not? YES! 17 crew, exactly 5 kills. Ship is mine!

I had scored 4 extra sectors(one barely thanks to the full speed ahead order). So overall convincing victory.



Casualties:

Vuldrok:

8 myrkwyrm
crippled hadruk

=145

hazat:

cruiser
captured carrier
2 captured destroyers
destroyer
8 torpedo bombers

=1130+100(hold the ground)+200(scenario objectives)=1430

So yeah. I think that's massacre victory...

Ships of the match:

Myrkwyrms. Influenced his game by forcing him to deal with them, surprisingly resilient taking annoyingly lots of damage to take out and caused nice amount of damage including of course the spectacular ram against the cruiser basically knocking that out of the contest...

Dissapointment of the match:

Canai. Didn't do much even before getting crippled and just kept failing to hit anything seriously.

Definitely feel that ram 2 for the myrkwyrms is justifiable. Ram 3 makes them real nasty buggers giving average of 10.5 damage. Especially seeing it has 50-50 chance of causing enough damage to get that d6 critical which is just BRUTAL!

My initial fear against fighters was reduced a bit. With weak weapons not affecting Vuldrok ships and heavy fighters generally having lower dodge scores I should be able to knock those that can hurt me at decent rate. Then when they attacked these were kinda...Wimpy! I think he suffered from 2 factors: a) they were heavy fighters designed against shielded targets. Decados heavy fighters might have been more up to the task due to swapping slow(ignore shields) to devastating+1(beefier critical hits). Though even less of a dodge and less accuracy. b) he sent them forward straight ahead. We both agreed this was _bad move_. He wanted them to start dealing with the myrkwyrms(which he already knew for nasty thing) but this gave me them to shoot at when I didn't have range vs his capital ships anyway...Tough proposition. Do you let myrkwyrms reach you without using fighters or do you give meaningful targets to shoot?

Next time I take Vuldrok I'll take less myrkwyrms! Time to try something different and see how it goes. Or I might try the Decados next up.

And pretty sure my dice roll is bound to take a hit sooner or later :D Or maybe it should be that HIS dice roll is going to go up. Christ he rolled crappily again.
 
I agree with toning down the ramming seeing what happened here. They're supposed to be little troopships, not jumpgate-capable guided missiles..

Comments:

or can it launch while being boarded?
Yes. The defender can operate the ship normally until the last of his marines are slaughtered.

Only ship succeeding in critical repairs(these had sucked for both of us all game) was dreadnought but it fixed both of the crits!
You can only fix one 'class' of criticals, no matter how well you succeed on the roll, unless you're on All Hands On Deck! orders.

we presume CBD saves damage but critical hits still come in play. Though CBD can save extra damage from criticals right?
Yup. As I understand it, Close Blast Doors! gives you a save against any damage or troop loss, whether from gunfire, escalating critical hits, boarding actions, rams or rampaging space parrots.

On a related note, this makes Close Blast Doors! a viable response for the defender to an enemy boarding action; essentially locking down the ship and preparing to repel boarders.
 
locarno24 said:
I agree with toning down the ramming seeing what happened here. They're supposed to be little troopships, not jumpgate-capable guided missiles..

Yeah that's my problem too. Those are no boarding ships(for boarding I would be looking at the galliot. More survivable+bit guns+more grapling hooks to ruin gatling lasers day). They are guided BIG torpedo's that have very decent shot of causing crippling damage to cruisers and even better for dreadnoughts where their lumbering makes it even easier!

When I looked at the stats first thing that struct was "ram 3. Cool!". Okay so it has 3 troopers, one which is elite, and special rule regarding boarding(but that's negative special rule) but still means you need to bring in multiple's to stand shot of taking out bigger ship. One ram can cripple big ship...And since they are so cheap you get multiple attempts.

Both my victories can be attributed more or less to ramming. Rest of vuldrok fleet was basically doing just mopping up post-rams...

Kinda weird when biggest influence comes from couple 30 point explorers...

Also while CBD'ing they are actually surprisingly resilient. And for that price you can afford to lose like half of them and they still earn themselves back. And that's assuming you assume you need to destroy ship worth their value...But here the 8 myrkwyrms pretty much earned their points back with one ram that crippled the cruiser. That had such a huge impact on the game that made back the 240 points alone. And all the firepower they soaked up in the process...

You can only fix one 'class' of criticals, no matter how well you succeed on the roll, unless you're on All Hands On Deck! orders.

Ok. Well wasn't that big deal by then(unlike say missing the fact crit is d6 rather than +1 like in first game). One of them would have been enough.
 
Very interesting report there. You've certainly highlighted (again) how overstrong the Ram 3 Myrkwyrms are. Perhaps you should try a game with them at Ram 2 and see if they're still too strong for the cost?

Couple of other things:

- Weak weapons are no longer useless against armored ships, that text is gone with the change. Admittedly, they're not very good against them, since the -1 damage table mod for weak guns makes your armor better, but any chance is better than none and some folks have expressed a concern that fighter swarms may be too strong versus Vuldrok, who aren't great at shooting multiple small targets and have no dogfighters. Hazat fighters with 2AD of slug guns apiece might have been a better threat (especially at half the cost) than their bombers, since they wouldn't have had to reload. The wacky 3AD Li Halan fighters are even scarier - but they'll all really struggle against Armor 2 and 3 hulls.

- Not to insult your friend, but that Hazat fleet could have been configured a lot better. Aside from the bomber-vs-fighter thing (which I'm not sold on myself), not having any explorers of his own is just crippling. Hazat relies on scout support to boost firepower against key targets almost as heavily as Al Malik does. Moreover, the explorers would have brought 2 light lasers each to the table, giving him some accurate, precise weapons to crit-fish on your armored hulls, and with the range to stay away from rams and light slug gun volleys pretty efficiently. Going heavy on destroyers and cruisers (with all those myopic light blasters) is less of a problem than usual when facing Vuldrok, since they'll rush to close too, but myself, I'd have found room for a few frigates as well. They carry more troops per point than destroyers for the inevitable board-counterboard stage of things, and their laser broadsides (while small) are strong against armor.

But mostly, if you can bring scouts, always do so. Those rerolls are too important to skip, and while Hazat scouts are 10 points more than others, that's a bargain for a second laser when facing Vuldrok.
 
starbreaker said:
- Weak weapons are no longer useless against armored ships, that text is gone with the change.

I was told here that Matt had indicated in email they are supposed to be proof vs them.

Indeed: http://forum.mongoosepublishing.com/viewtopic.php?f=103&t=49321&start=45

First that statement and bit later Matt himself makes message that while does not confirm it makes no sense if that's false. Ergo looks a lot like they ARE proof vs weak weapons.
 
That needs to be fixed before they go to press, then. No one who hasn't seen the original rules would have any reason to assume they don't work.

Not sure it's needed anyway. They're already highly resistant to them on the armor 2 and 3 hulls (which ignore 3 in 6 and 4 in 6 hits, respectively) and with no armor critical location anymore, they can never have their defense bypassed like shield crits do. Making them vulnerable to weak guns, especially on ships with low base armor or armor degraded by APTE abuse, doesn't seem like a huge problem to me.

It's not like shielded ships are actually immune to weak guns either. Drop the shields with Burn-Out guns first or score a shield crit and fighters can plink at them. I've still never seen the gnats actually kill a ship, and it isn't for want of trying.

Besides, "vulnerable to weak" armor would eliminate the tournament issue of fixed-list fleets having points tied up in utterly useless fighters when they come up against Vuldrok opponents.
 
people rarely if ever use fighters in tourneys, they are a waste of time.
the only time i think you will see a carrier is if someone goes all carriers and bomber swarm
 
Might (maybe) see a little more use once Fleets of The Fading Suns turns up;

with Hawkwood getting stealth-ed torp bombers that you'll have trouble engaging with gunfire, and supposedly troop-carrying assault craft making an appearance, it might be more tempting.

Also, the appearance of hybrid craft, like the Kublai and Shamshir, which give you a couple of launch bays without compromising fighting power too much, also make a little bit of top cover tempting; they can't deploy enough to make for a meaningful attack force but it doesn't take too many dogfighters to take a big bite out of a torp bomber force.
 
thats one reason why you will see less carriers IMO, few fighters carried on fighting craft being able to stop enemy torpedo/stealth bombers
 
That's kind of what I meant, albeit not phrased too well;

Since you can only have fighters on a carrier, and (at the moment) the only carriers are dedicated ones, you're not going to spend the points of a destroyer (or cruiser or even dreadnought) on an undergunned carrier without stuffing it to the gunwhales with the best strike craft you can muster.

By comparison, a cruiser with craft:2, or a dreadnought with craft:4 (or some as-yet-unseen destroyer with craft:1) allows enough superiority fighters to at least take the sting out of a bomber wave before it reaches torp range, even if they don't stop all of them.

I'm yet to see the Shamshir in action, though. I like the theory but I'm not convinced that giving up a third of the broadside and boarding ability is a great deal.
 
Fair point. At the moment carriers seem to work best when they're jammed full of bombers and fielded in swarms. I've only ever had good luck with that trick against opponents who never faced it before, so I can see them being rare in tourneys. The hybrid carriers (with a few cheap fighters for dogfighting) will reduce pure-bomber carrier fleet effectiveness even more - although with the outnumbering bonus, the numerical disparity in small craft may not make that idea as helpful as it sounds. Even a Kurgan interceptor doesn't really want to dogfight six bombers at once. :)

Would you say carriers in general are undereffective for their cost? Or is the problem the cost of their payloads? Or is it a combination of both? I know one of our locals players suggested making dogfighters free (assuming you have the hanger space) and reducing the cost of all other craft by 10, but AFAIK it's yet to be playtested so I can't say how much that changes things. It would certainly make the VP award for small craft more palatable to a carrier fleet, but it might give them too much punch.

Incidentally, Matt confirmed that the intent of the playtest rules was to have armored ships immune to weak guns up on the rules Q&A forum, so that is a definite and will be changed in print.
 
the cost of adding craft is too much. mostly they are frigates in firepower with destroyer damage level.
but a fully loading malcom for example costs 310pts for bombers which are basically one shot.
for that the enemy comes at you with 3 frigates and will kill your carrier.

i have suggested a fix to matt will see if it goes anywhere
 
katadder said:
the cost of adding craft is too much. mostly they are frigates in firepower with destroyer damage level.
but a fully loading malcom for example costs 310pts for bombers which are basically one shot.
for that the enemy comes at you with 3 frigates and will kill your carrier.

i have suggested a fix to matt will see if it goes anywhere

That was pretty much our conclusion as well after a few early carrier walkovers. The meson tube "bombers" are particularly awful since they absolutely have to be facing downed shields in order to have any real effect, but none of the torp ones are all that impressive either. Even Al Malik's 4AD monsters aren't so good - they've got the punch but are so slow and fragile that they stand very little chance of reloading during a game, and they aren't worth their current cost as one-shots.

I know we discussed several solutions ourselves, including the "all craft 10 cheaper" thing I mentioned. Another possibility would be to have bombers simply "teleport" back to a carrier (maybe within a certain distance - 30" perhaps) once they fired, so the reload cycle speeds up. After all, if a damaged craft can manage to instantaneously limp back to land, why can't an intact bomber that just dropped its payload?

You could also give carriers Hull 5 instead of saddling them with 4, but that doesn't actually help the expensive one-shot bomber issue any and it's bad for differentiating between gunship and carrier. Those big hanger doors really ought to make you a softer target.
 
emails i sent matt:

the problem with making carriers better is that you increase the power of the carrier swarm which is extremely powerful when people dont expect it.
on the flipside a single carrier is never worth it as they cost more than a frigate for effectively 10 more damage and same or less weapons. then you have to buy fighters/bombers on top.
one fix I could see is make the carriers the following points but full of fighters/bombers but limit them to 1 per 1000pts as carriers never go anywhere without escorts to stop the swarm.

all 150pt carriers to 200pts (current price loaded with bombers - 310pts)
hazat heavy carrier to 400pts (current price loaded with bombers - 560pts)
osprey carrier to 600pts (current price loaded with bombers - 820pts - same saving as 2 light carriers)

this might make carriers more viable as people dont want a 310pt frigate with 8 1 shot weapons (as bombers really are one shot if they even get there) but stops the carrier/bomber swarm that no fleet can currently stop.

which outlines my fix
 
Having carriers loaded for a fixed cost and limiting them to 1 per 1000 points has some apparent problems:

- It doesn't do anything to encourage the use of fighters, since they're now competing for limited hanger space and we'd no longer risk facing overwhelming numbers of enemy bombers, which reduces the need for dogfighters even further.

- It makes the fleets with heavy carriers much better at carrier ops than those without. Hawkwood and (presumably) Kurgan can spend 60% of their points on carriers, while (say) Al Malik or Li Halan can only manage a 20% ratio. The former ratio might not be a winning proposition, but it could deliver enough bombers to matter. The latter brings very little punch to the table, although it might pay for itself with pure bomber loadouts.

Not sold on the argument that carrier/bomber swarms can't currently be stopped by any fleet. The only times I've seen a carrier fleet win was when the enemy didn't realize how dangerous those little bombers really are, and sometimes even then. Experienced players beat them by maneuver, playing keep-away from the carriers to delay the reload cycle while gunning down any visible bombers as they close. Smaller ships (frigates and under) are generally better at that job than bigger ones, simply because they're faster and have more ability to split fire on multiple fragile targets, but even a "destroyer & dread" gunship fleet can kill enough bombers to reduce their impact to a manageable level. Once the bombers are dead or headed home to reload, the carriers are easy meat, of course.

Think I'll be trying the "teleport home" idea I mentioned, maybe with a die roll appended for success if there are enemy fighters nearby. It's a little abstract, but compared to the other solutions it doesn't tamper with point values (thereby invalidating printed fleet lists and messing up existing collections' point costs) or rewrite stats, just a section of the core rules. Done right, it can encourage the use of fighters a bit, and by shortening the reload cycle and reducing bomber casualties (they only have to survive one leg of the trip now) it boosts carrier power a fair amount. Maybe enough to be worthwhile, even.
 
you cant split fire unless you have multiple weapons so for example a li-halan frigate or destroyer that have no turrets are limited to one attempt a turn to drop a fighter/bomber.
 
katadder said:
you cant split fire unless you have multiple weapons so for example a li-halan frigate or destroyer that have no turrets are limited to one attempt a turn to drop a fighter/bomber.

I did say "generally frigates and smaller" - and the Li Halan destroyer isn't "smaller" and does have a turret, anyway. Their ships are all relatively poor at popping bombers, but they're also (barring the cruiser) fast and long-ranged enough to gain another turn or two of shooting in which to murder a bomber wave. I haven't seen them having any more trouble manhandling carrier fleets than anyone else does - at least not enough to actually lose regularly.

Vuldrok have it even worse, with much shorter range and single gun decks on the frigates, but that also lets them keep more effective firepower under CBD orders, which go a long way to reducing bomber strikes as well. Kurgan ships aren't great either (the inaccurate trait hurts more against shielded bombers than slow helps) but they can bring excellent fighters, or better, multiroles to deal with bombers if they're really worried.
 
yes they have speed but a 2AD turrret that isnt slow is not going to drop a bomber unless you are lucky, needs both to hit, needs the bomber to miss a dodge. the broadside should stop a bomber. but then if you are concentrating on the bombers you are forgetting the carriers.
my bomber waves are followed in by carriers when doing a swarm and its really effective. nothing yet can stand upto it short of a carrier fleet with fighters (preferably an osprey leading it)
 
katadder said:
yes they have speed but a 2AD turrret that isnt slow is not going to drop a bomber unless you are lucky, needs both to hit, needs the bomber to miss a dodge.

Of course, but their shield will be burned, and the next destroyer turret volley will force 2 dodges. Li Halan isn't great at AA work, I already acknowledged that. They can't have everything, and they do have the speed and range to avoid bombers long enough to fire once, maybe twice more than most fleets. Most of their ships are actually faster than most bombers, so you have to herd them into a corner to even manage an intercept.

the broadside should stop a bomber. but then if you are concentrating on the bombers you are forgetting the carriers.

Which is what you should be doing against a carrier fleet. You've said it yourself, carrier guns are a joke for their cost even empty. If the enemy guns down enough of your bombers on the way there to dilute your main strike, then he's got plenty of time and guns to finish your carriers and the stragglers they launch later on. The current painfully slow reload cycle makes bombers the priority every time - the carriers can't rearm returning craft or return "saved" ones to play fast enough to put together a decent second strike in most games, so killing them early is not a priority. Amongst other things, you want them around to be boarded and give up bonus VP and cement a win for you, not burning in space.

my bomber waves are followed in by carriers when doing a swarm and its really effective. nothing yet can stand upto it short of a carrier fleet with fighters (preferably an osprey leading it)

Let's see the fleet you're using, and a battle report or two with specifics. I've had walkovers against people who'd never faced a carrier fleet before, or whose fleet mix was unusually bad at stopping bombers, but against most fleets with smart tactics it just doesn't happen often. The best I hope for these days with my Al Malik carrier force is for enough LoS blocking terrain to cover me while I crawl into range. If the strike is degraded by even 40% I've probably lost, and no one's bombers hit harder than Al Malik. Faster fleets with tougher bombers will have lower casualties, of course, but they need more craft to get the same punch in the end, so it tends to balance out. Even the speediest fleets (eg Hazat) don't manage much in the way of reloads - if you're managing it regularly I'd like to know how.
 
never said carriers weapons are a joke. they are the equivalent of frigate weapons for 50pts more usually. and the osprey itself is pretty well armed.
 
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