Ship's TL, Fixed or Fluid

[George Kelln]

Greetings

I would like to hear your opinions on the TL of a Ship:

1) High Guard 2022 Update page 8 states:

Before you start building your ship, decide on the Tech Level of the shipyard that will construct it. This is the maximum Tech Level available for any given component you add and also serves as the overall Tech Level of the ship itself.

Situation: The Travellers commissioned a ship to be built at a shipyard on Lunion (TL13).

2) Prior to construction, the Travellers decided that want to reduce the size of the J-Drive to make more space. The Travellers successfully convince the shipyard to install the a new advanced smaller size J-Drive.

High Guard 2022 Update page 70-71 states:

Prototype/Advanced Table: Advanced result is TL+1, size -10%, cost +10%.

With the addition of the smaller J-Drive, the Travellers' ship is now TL14.

3) Months later, the Travellers want to refit their current Computer/25 (TL13), which is max'ed out, with a Computer/35 (TL15). They find a TL15 shipyard to do it.

Now what is the TL of the ship?

a) Fixed: TL14 as it came out of the shipyard; or
b) Fluid: TL15 after refitting the new Computer/35?

I'd like to hear your opinions.

Cheers

George

 

[Sigtrygg]

In my opinion it is a stupid rule caused by adherence to misunderstanding of the difference between how things were during CT days and how they were when HG LBB5 came out.

Under CT rules any A class starport could build a ship from 100-5000 tons regardless of the world's TL.

The insetting rationale for this is that either every class A starport is TL15, or every class A starport can import components from other worlds within the sector.

Then came HG which was intended for military ship construction rather than civilian. The TL of the world suddenly matters, and yet you don;t need to have a class A starport.

Within the Third Imperium setting I would say all A class starports can build civilian ships of up to TL15, importing any parts from other worlds if necessary.

 

[Arkathan]

Fluid, however due to the high degree of system integration, IMTU I would require the Main Computer to be upgraded at the relevant tech level during the refit, even if the same capacity and cost computer is installed, in order to refer to the ship as being at a higher tech level, instead of a junker with kludged on fancy bits. And those fancy bits are not always backwards compatible, so issues could arise when the crits start to fly.

OTOH, In the Mongoose universe, there are advantages to having a lower tech requirement for maintenance, if you are out in the boonies.

 

[JustEastOfTheEdge]

I do it by component. So a TL 12 Starport can repair components up to 12. Pretty easy.

Needs a roll for a chance at repairing a higher part.

 

[Geir]

Maybe I'm reading this too late at night, but Lunion should only be able to build TL13 ships. So only a TL 12 drive (Jump-3, available at TL12) could be upgraded to incorporate advanced features; a TL14 drive would be an imported bolt-on component, probably built on Tenalphi or Palique and imported at great cost - and it would not 'upgrade' the ship to TL14 - if that's a thing (yes, with smart missiles, it's a thing). The computer installed, I presume at a TL15 yard, would be TL15, but for all intents and purposes, the ship would still be TL13... you would get the extra bandwidth, but sensors, wiring, remote panels, etc., would be be TL13.

Most of the Core books out-of-the-box ships are TL12. I assume that a class A starport generally has access to TL12 parts - if it's in the Imperium and not off in a remote backwater, but above TL12, if the world's TL isn't above 12, then getting parts above TL12 would be sketchy at best. Double your maintenance costs for the fancy bits at least.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

"Fixed or Fluid?"
Yes.
Fixed at construction.
Fluid with refits.

Maybe I'm reading this too late at night, but Lunion should only be able to build TL13 ships. So only a TL 12 drive (Jump-3, available at TL12) could be upgraded to incorporate advanced features

Agreed.

You look at the individual component to see if it has a lower base TL than the shipyard, if so the difference can be used for advanced tech upgrades.


After refit, it would be a TL-13 ship with some higher tech components. Presumably a higher tech shipyard would be needed to repair the upgraded components. Some guidance can be found in:

MgT1 Trillion Credit Squadron, p16:
Starport Repairs: Full repairs on capital ships can be conducted at any class A or B starport. Starports cannot repair systems with a higher Tech Level than the planet they operate on.

 

[Condottiere]

The simple answer is the local industrial base and facilities.

Within the Imperium, the assumption can be that at the local starport alpha, upto technological level twelve, regardless of the local technological level; other parts can be imported, though likely at a premium, especially if you need to call in a team to do the installation.

Traffic and gross domestic product could indicate that the local starport has a wide range of spare parts, even highly technological ones, if the system is well travelled, rich but low local technological level.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Maybe I'm reading this too late at night, but Lunion should only be able to build TL13 ships. So only a TL 12 drive (Jump-3, available at TL12) could be upgraded to incorporate advanced features; a TL14 drive would be an imported bolt-on component, probably built on Tenalphi or Palique and imported at great cost - and it would not 'upgrade' the ship to TL14 - if that's a thing (yes, with smart missiles, it's a thing). The computer installed, I presume at a TL15 yard, would be TL15, but for all intents and purposes, the ship would still be TL13... you would get the extra bandwidth, but sensors, wiring, remote panels, etc., would be be TL13.

Most of the Core books out-of-the-box ships are TL12. I assume that a class A starport generally has access to TL12 parts - if it's in the Imperium and not off in a remote backwater, but above TL12, if the world's TL isn't above 12, then getting parts above TL12 would be sketchy at best. Double your maintenance costs for the fancy bits at least.

The Imperium was TL12 when it was founded over a thousand years ago, the Imperial military was using TL15 in the 700s, widespread civilian TL15 is over a hundred years.
Imperial A class starports can build civilian TL15 ships - for some reason TL10 Regina shipyards can build TL15 Kinunir vessels for the IN
The shipyard TL rule introduced in LBB5 contradicts both the setting and the original rules.
IN bases are all TL15.

 

[phavoc]

Greetings

I would like to hear your opinions on the TL of a Ship:

1) High Guard 2022 Update page 8 states:

Before you start building your ship, decide on the Tech Level of the shipyard that will construct it. This is the maximum Tech Level available for any given component you add and also serves as the overall Tech Level of the ship itself.

Situation: The Travellers commissioned a ship to be built at a shipyard on Lunion (TL13).

2) Prior to construction, the Travellers decided that want to reduce the size of the J-Drive to make more space. The Travellers successfully convince the shipyard to install the a new advanced smaller size J-Drive.

High Guard 2022 Update page 70-71 states:

Prototype/Advanced Table: Advanced result is TL+1, size -10%, cost +10%.

With the addition of the smaller J-Drive, the Travellers' ship is now TL14.

3) Months later, the Travellers want to refit their current Computer/25 (TL13), which is max'ed out, with a Computer/35 (TL15). They find a TL15 shipyard to do it.

Now what is the TL of the ship?

a) Fixed: TL14 as it came out of the shipyard; or
b) Fluid: TL15 after refitting the new Computer/35?

I'd like to hear your opinions.

Cheers

George

The question seems simple, but the answer, if you want a realistic one, is complicated.

For the most part, a decision on the TL of components is made prior to construction and that is a "fixed" concept since these things have to be sourced and purchased ahead of time. Swapping them out may require you to make hull changes, power or other sub-system changes to accommodate the requested change. And, of course, design fees and delays.

To further muddy the waters, it MAY be as simple as swapping out a component that is essentially the same, yet has better capabilities, such as TL-13 computer for a TL-12. Of course, while you may have XX teraflops of extra computing power, your sensors were designed around a TL-12 system so that TL-13 system can't take advantage of the changes, thus while you are ready for a refit, you can't make any actual use of th your upgraded component.

That's the "reality" version of something like this. As far as gaming goes, players always like to scavenge, swap, or steal new components to make their ship more uber. So in this case you probably want to be a be a little more forgiving and come up with a reasonable amount to retrofit the new item into the ship (but no need to give them a good deal selling off the older one, it's both used AND "old"...

TL is a bit more tricky. You can have a TL-15 ship repaired on a TL-6 world so long as the techs have access to the TL-15 parts and have been trained on what to do. They need not know quantum mechanics and differential equations in order to follow instructions to swap out a widget. The TL of a world really has nothing to do with the capabilities of a small place on it. You see "A"checks (the most basic) being performed on 787 aircraft in 3rd world countries like Somalia. How? Becuase the mechanics were trained on how to do the basic work, use the tools and understand the information they get from the systems they are working on. It's not hard to do that as long as you plan ahead and train your people.

So in the case you have listed above, the Ship itself is TL-13, with the drive being TL-14. That's because, with the exception of the drive, the rest of the ship was built to a TL-13 standard, thus adding some components to it does not change the overall TL of the ship itself. The crew can take advantage of the more advanced drive. However, they are now also disadvantaged the further away from TL-14 standard worlds they get. Since the average TL of the Imperium is 12, it's more likely to find TL-13 components on a TL-12 world than it is to find TL-14. Not to say that you won't find them - the probability goes up the closer they are to worlds that would manufacture them, as well as closer to major routes between higher-tech worlds. But the further away they get, the less likely they will find them easily available. So long as they are willing to wait they will EVENTUALLY get there. And, if you want to follow real-world rules, if there is enough demand, you may find a parts warehouse 1-2 jumps away, thus your timeframe for replacement parts could be cut significantly.

 

[jjones277]

In my game the ship's TL (from whatever shipyard it was initially manufactured at...) applies almost exclusively to the ship's hull (which is the one portion of the ship that can't really be charged). Nearly every other component on the ship can be replaced and upgraded - though some might be really cost prohibitive. The ship's computer might be one such item, because the ship's computer is integrated throughout the hull of the ship. Though I generally would allow the ship's computer to be ungraded - assuming that what is actually integrated into the ship are sensors, consoles, and various electro-mechanical controls and not the computer core its self.

I also assume that all A and B class starports operate at least at the Imperial average TL, which in my game is still TL12 - regardless of a lower native TL of the world they are located on. A and B class starports on higher TL worlds have a TL to match that of the higher TL world. I assume that such large and vital ports have access to a minimum level of technology and trained staff to operate and that the availability of higher level tech from the host world would surely be present at such a busy port. I mean, if a 747 lands at a major airport in a foreign country and needs repairs it isn't just abandoned because it's impossible to fix - the airport can service nearly all ships that are able to land at it.

Higher tech level ships and components become a little trickier - An A class starport on a TL 8 world probably won't have many (or any) TL15 parts and trained technicians to retrofit or repair a ship. Those parts and trained technicians will need to be shipped in and that will likely be cost and time prohibitive (Time to place the order, time to coordinate the technicians - who likely have families and day jobs, travel time to and from the work site, freight costs for the components, berthing costs for the technicians, etc.). In the end it's almost always cheaper to take your ship to the higher TL port for repairs.

One kind of blind spot in all this is the TL for the world that the character's skills were developed on. Should a character from a TL 10 world know how to work on TL 12 components? Logically it doesn't make a great deal of sense, but generally we don't consider TL when we are looking at how well a skill check goes. If the character has M-Drive or J-Drive we assume that they can figure it all out. How well would an computer technician (or historically an electrical engineer) from the 1950s be able to work on a modern PC? - Where are all the vacuum tubes?!?!

 

[CordwainerFish]

How well would a computer technician (or historically an electrical engineer) from the 1950s be able to work on a modern PC? - Where are all the vacuum tubes?!?!

Or even from the Seventies - "why is smoke coming out of my oscilloscope?" (Yes, I know that's not what would happen.)
There's an essay by John W. Campbell where, as a gedankenexperiment, he puts a late Forties missile into the hands of Twenties scientists and explains why they wouldn't be able to make heads or tails of it. ("That looks like an engine but it has no moving parts. And that element does not have any radioactive isotopes!")

 

[Yatima]

...

One kind of blind spot in all this is the TL for the world that the character's skills were developed on. Should a character from a TL 10 world know how to work on TL 12 components? Logically it doesn't make a great deal of sense, but generally we don't consider TL when we are looking at how well a skill check goes. If the character has M-Drive or J-Drive we assume that they can figure it all out. How well would an computer technician (or historically an electrical engineer) from the 1950s be able to work on a modern PC? - Where are all the vacuum tubes?!?!

Megatraveller actually has a rule for this in the Task system:

For each tech level above the highest tech level represented by the tech code, subtract one from the character's skill level.

Tech codes were useful groupings of tech levels into eras - early Stellar, Average Stellar etc. There was a lot of griping about the Mega Traveller/DGP task system, but I actually think it was the most elegant and comprehensive version.

 

[Geir]

There was a lot of griping about the Mega Traveller/DGP task system, but I actually think it was the most elegant and comprehensive version.

I pretty much agree. I especially liked the uncertain tasks.
(And I thought I remembered the TL Skill DM from somewhere... thanks for reminding me)

 

[tytalan]

The ships TL only refers to the core of the ship at the time it’s built. Some aspect can change but they should be noted. One of the issues about the computer tho is it’s decentralized and you literally have to do a major overhaul to replace/upgrade it
“Computers do not consume any tonnage on a ship
– while they do have a physical presence, they are
distributed throughout the ship “ HG 2022 pg 20.

 

[Geir]

I would think that you could upgrade say, a Model 1, um Computer/5 to any more advanced computer supported by the ship's TL, which can be assumed as 12 (so Computer/20 or Core/70 as a limit) in most standard design cases, but beyond that... I'm just thinking of all the changes in cabling that have occurred since I strung 2Mb ARCnet in 1990 - wireless probably doesn't work well on a starship because of interference risks (and external compromise), so it's at best a ship-wide rewiring job and a replacement of nearly every connected component if you up the TL of the computer beyond that of the ship.

 

[Condottiere]

I guess I would start googling for a Youtube tutorial.

 

[Micky]

as a beginner to the game that was definitely a question I had early on... as playing around, tinkering with ships was part 2 of the course I took on learning Traveller. Part 1 obviously being Character Creation and rolling up more characters than will likely ever can be used or even NPC'd haha.

My take on it was the TL of the ship was based on the shipyard it was built per those opening pages of High Guard, thus there was an obvious TL max on anything placed in the ship when it was built. Say TL12... but... could not find anywhere in the rules that if you had the scores of megacredits and took that ship to say a TL15 Class A port.. you could rip out drives, computers.. any internal components as long as the hull itself is not changed (and things like armor being specifically excluded from being added after the ship was originally built). The costs were heavy, costing you to take out the out part and and extra costs over the normal cost of a component to have new components installed in revamped ship design... but it could be done. Would love to know if there was a rules reference (2022 MRB,HG update books I'm working from) that specifically excluded that. I'd be surprised if there was... my hot take on Traveller rules is while crunchy.. they are pretty open ended which is perfect for cases like this which really wouldn't make sense to exclude if you are able and willing to pay the costs. Something pertinent for those who get a whole ship free and clear in character creation and take up the monthly ship mortgage on those tweaks, improvements to an already constructed ship that had no monthly payment.

 

[Geir]

as a beginner to the game that was definitely a question I had early on... as playing around, tinkering with ships was part 2 of the course I took on learning Traveller. Part 1 obviously being Character Creation and rolling up more characters than will likely ever can be used or even NPC'd haha.

My take on it was the TL of the ship was based on the shipyard it was built per those opening pages of High Guard, thus there was an obvious TL max on anything placed in the ship when it was built. Say TL12... but... could not find anywhere in the rules that if you had the scores of megacredits and took that ship to say a TL15 Class A port.. you could rip out drives, computers.. any internal components as long as the hull itself is not changed (and things like armor being specifically excluded from being added after the ship was originally built). The costs were heavy, costing you to take out the out part and and extra costs over the normal cost of a component to have new components installed in revamped ship design... but it could be done. Would love to know if there was a rules reference (2022 MRB,HG update books I'm working from) that specifically excluded that. I'd be surprised if there was... my hot take on Traveller rules is while crunchy.. they are pretty open ended which is perfect for cases like this which really wouldn't make sense to exclude if you are able and willing to pay the costs. Something pertinent for those who get a whole ship free and clear in character creation and take up the monthly ship mortgage on those tweaks, improvements to an already constructed ship that had no monthly payment.

There is page 72 of the High Guard update book. The Refitting Ships section covers major and minor refits and associated costs and it does exclude armour:

Armour and other parts of the ship integral to the hull (such as configuration or reinforced structure) cannot be changed under any refit.

Or did you mean more detail than that?

 

[Micky]

yeah Geir for sure saw that and that was the only exception I found to refitting ships... so my take on it was that if I character took a TL12 ship to a TL15 Class A shipyard they could pretty much gut the interior of it and upgrade it to TL15 components though at substantial cost. The computer was the first thing I had in mind when I did my first customized ship, and it is costly for sure but didn't see anything in High Guard that said you couldn't do it if you had the money, or were willing to make payments of a refit if the ship was fully paid off or had been gotten in full during character creation.

 

[Geir]

There's even a quirk for used ship where the computer is upgraded, so it's probably fine to do. Could be they just ignore the old wiring and connectors and plug in new stuff.