So looking at the Gazelle in Highguard 2022 and my only thoughts are WTF? The tonage doesn’t add up no matter how you look at it. It’s TL 14 but it’s got disadvantages on it power plant (TL 12 increased size), M-Drive (Thrust 5 increased Size), and J-Drive (Energy Inefficient) which makes no sense. It’s an Escort but it’s only has Military Grade sensors with no support for them. It’s supposed to be this good anti piracy ship but it couldn’t anti piracy itself out of a paper bag. What were they thinking when they designed the Mongoose version?
What with the Gazelle?
- Thread starter tytalan
- Start date
JustEastOfTheEdge
Cosmic Mongoose
You have interrogated a gazelle.
AnotherDilbert
Emperor Mongoose
Budget drives, -25% cost.
J. L. Brown
Emperor Mongoose
I have slightly tweaked the Gazelle in the following file: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1KdGq4u-S4cogQjz8pynp0n7QSmQp4Xi-0Jgw7P434bg/edit?usp=sharing
My version is J-4, in keeping with Imperial Naval Doctrine. It also does away with the PA barbettes, which seem a little strange for a ship designed to protect other ships. Instead I picked up a dedicated PD battery & a (V Long range) Pulse Laser barbette. I upped the armor from 3 points to 5, and added anti-rad shielding; and improved the sensors & bridge. The officers no longer get private staterooms; sorry. The first 20 dTon 'cargo' entry represents the 20 dTon Military Gig carried on the docking grapple; this ship only has 1.04 dTons of actual cargo space -- although there is a bit more if it is not carrying fuel for a J-4.
There is also sufficient 'Biosphere' to feed everyone aboard, reducing the need for Life Support supplies.
Also, I use 'reduced cost for computers at TLs after their introduction'; the second column of costs on the 'Comp' tab reflects this. My design comes out ~92 MCr cheaper than the displayed price because of that.
My version is J-4, in keeping with Imperial Naval Doctrine. It also does away with the PA barbettes, which seem a little strange for a ship designed to protect other ships. Instead I picked up a dedicated PD battery & a (V Long range) Pulse Laser barbette. I upped the armor from 3 points to 5, and added anti-rad shielding; and improved the sensors & bridge. The officers no longer get private staterooms; sorry. The first 20 dTon 'cargo' entry represents the 20 dTon Military Gig carried on the docking grapple; this ship only has 1.04 dTons of actual cargo space -- although there is a bit more if it is not carrying fuel for a J-4.
There is also sufficient 'Biosphere' to feed everyone aboard, reducing the need for Life Support supplies.
Also, I use 'reduced cost for computers at TLs after their introduction'; the second column of costs on the 'Comp' tab reflects this. My design comes out ~92 MCr cheaper than the displayed price because of that.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Pirates have a phobia about being irradiated.
That would be fine if they were listed as budget drives but they are not. Also the description specifically states “
The close escort, even when new, was not intended to stand up to combat vessels; rather it was envisioned as an anti-piracy and revenue patrol ship. In that role, it has performed well, but when pressed into combat duties it has invariably suffered disproportionate losses.” The design absolutely as is cannot in anyway be effective as an Anti-piracy and revenue ship. In addition no where does it describe it as a low-budget ship.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
I guess you weren't issued the decoder ring.
Though, seriously, any spacecraft design's accounting has to be rechecked, before you use it.
Assuming such things matter to you, or your players.
Though, seriously, any spacecraft design's accounting has to be rechecked, before you use it.
Assuming such things matter to you, or your players.
AnotherDilbert
Emperor Mongoose
The original JTAS HG'79 Gazelle was a proper little warship. Basically all later versions have been highly compromised. The quoted text is from CT S9, not unique to MgT.
Here they enlarged the ship from 400 Dt including the drop tank to 400 Dt excluding the drop tank. I can only guess they had to waste all that extra space somehow...
Basically none of the ships in HG are any good, they are just copies of ships from CT (that weren't any good either). They are just traditional, just like the Scout and Free Trader.
The original was 400dt but it was controversial because the drop tanks were not actually a permanent part of the ship and shouldn’t have been counted when figuring out the number of available Hard Points. It was often point out that the original should have only had 3 Hard Points. Actually there’s no reason for the Gazelle not to be even more effective in MgT2. The problem is whoever wrote up the ship didn’t bother to pay attention to the description of the ship. The Gazelle is supposed to be a good revenue and pirate hunting ship but it can’t find the pirates or anything else. And giving a Pirate Hunter budget anything is stupid.
AnotherDilbert
Emperor Mongoose
The original JTAS#4 was a, i believe, perfectly legal LBB5'79 ship of about 240 Dt + drop tanks with two turrets and a 10 Dt bay (reskinned to two barbettes for LBB2 combat).
The problems arise from the LBB2'80 remake with 4 hardpoints on a 300 Dt hull.
Like almost all ships in HG.
They are not built to be good, they are built to resemble CT ships. As small ships were much more constrained in CT, the MgT versions has to be detuned to be in the same ballpark. Of course we can build better ships ourselves, just as we always has...
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
So, if MgT can make it better (which I believe it can) someone bold should toss a design in here and we can discuss tweaks. If that proves popular, we could end up hashing all the small Navy ships to see what the Navy should be using.
AnotherDilbert
Emperor Mongoose
"Better", for some definition of "better", is easy. Good is perhaps more elusive...
Here a version informed by the JTAS original:
340 Dt + 20 Dt gig + 120 Dt drop tank = 480 Dt totally.
J-4, M-4 with tanks. J-5 dropping tank, J-2 & M-5 without tank.
Internal jump fuel in Fuel / Cargo Container, so can switch cargo for range, e.g. extra 48 Dt cargo and J-3.
Armour 15, Rad Shielding, one PA turret, two laser turrets.
Advanced sensors with Extension Net and Signal Processor.
A lot more expensive than the HG'22 Gazelle...
Note: My spreadsheet is not fully updated to HG'22, so it's a bit off, but hopefully in the right ballpark.
Carrying around a drop tank is a bit silly for a naval ship, it will just be shot off...
Here a version informed by the JTAS original:
340 Dt + 20 Dt gig + 120 Dt drop tank = 480 Dt totally.
J-4, M-4 with tanks. J-5 dropping tank, J-2 & M-5 without tank.
Internal jump fuel in Fuel / Cargo Container, so can switch cargo for range, e.g. extra 48 Dt cargo and J-3.
Armour 15, Rad Shielding, one PA turret, two laser turrets.
Advanced sensors with Extension Net and Signal Processor.
A lot more expensive than the HG'22 Gazelle...
Note: My spreadsheet is not fully updated to HG'22, so it's a bit off, but hopefully in the right ballpark.
Carrying around a drop tank is a bit silly for a naval ship, it will just be shot off...
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
You can update the design without breaking canon, by explaining it's a later batch.
Though, then you need a timeline detailing the various variants, and when and where they were manufactured.
Assuming there is enough spare space, midlife refits.
Though, then you need a timeline detailing the various variants, and when and where they were manufactured.
Assuming there is enough spare space, midlife refits.
AndrewW
Emperor Mongoose
Something along the lines of Supplement 5: Lightning Class Cruisers?That could be an entire book
Gazelle Operator's Manual?
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
You could do a series.
But I think you have to start with either the freetrader concept, or the scoutship., whichever most player parties utilize most.
The scoutship, part time courier, Suleiman class, may be both too simple and too complex to handle.
I dislike it, because the design goes nowhere, one reason I went with a fresh slate in the Confederation.
But I think you have to start with either the freetrader concept, or the scoutship., whichever most player parties utilize most.
The scoutship, part time courier, Suleiman class, may be both too simple and too complex to handle.
I dislike it, because the design goes nowhere, one reason I went with a fresh slate in the Confederation.
Alqualonde
Cosmic Mongoose
Here is my take on the Gazelle. I use the old Trader & Gunboats from CT as a base : 300dt ship with the gig in an internal cradle (Docking space?) and a 100dt drop tank.
The ship carries a Gig in its docking space & 100dt of drop tanks.
The crew consists on 1 Captain, 3 Pilots (+2 for the Gig), 2 Engineers, 6 Gunners, 1 Sensor operator and 1 Officer (the XO).
The Gig pilots and the gunners are cross-trained marines. They can either serve as pilots or gunners or perform boarding.
Only the captain & the XO have single staterooms, everybody else is in double occupancy staterooms.
The ship is a good deterent for the run-of-the-mill pirates (those who don't have a military grade vessel) as it can soak turret weapons (beam & pulse lasers), although double or triple pulse laser fire can penetrate the armor. Barbette based weapons & missiles will be more dangerous.
If you want to make it a bit cheaper & weaker, remove the brigs & the rad shielding. make the drives & powerplant budgets ones (with +25% volume) & reduce the armor to 7 & the cargo to 5.8dt. The ship will now start to get hurt by pulse lasers (especially triple turrets). Cost will drop to 190MCr (without including the 10% for common ship designs).
TL-E 300dT Gazelle | dT | Mcr | EP |
Hull | |||
Hull 300dT Partially Streamlined – 120 Hull Points | -300 | 15 | 60 |
Armor AV12 – Bonded SD | 28,8 | 14,4 | - |
Rad Shielded | - | 7,5 | - |
| | | |
Engineering | |||
Jump Drive J-4 for 400dt | 45 | 67,5 | 160 |
Maneuver Drive 4G for 400dt | 16 | 32 | 160 |
Power Plant | 19 | 19 | -285 |
Fuel J2 + 4 weeks | 62 | - | - |
| | | |
Electronic | |||
Bridge – Holographic | 20 | 1,875 | - |
Computer/25/Fib | - | 15 | - |
Software | - | 2,4 | - |
Sensor Station | 1 | 0,5 | - |
Countermeasure Suite | 2 | 4 | 1 |
Improved Sensors (+1DM) | 3 | 4,3 | 4 |
| | | |
Weaponry | |||
2x Triple Turret | 2 | 2 | 2 |
6x Pulse Laser | - | 6 | 24 |
1x PAW Barbette | 5 | 8 | 15 |
| | | |
Accomodations | |||
10x Staterooms | 40 | 5 | - |
Common Area | 10 | 1 | - |
| | | |
Options | |||
Fuel Processor | 8 | 0,4 | 8 |
Fuel Scoop | - | 1 | - |
Armory | 1 | 0,25 | - |
Gig Docking Space | 22 | 5,5 | - |
Brig – 12 prisonners | 8 | 0,5 | - |
Drop Tank fittings | 0,4 | 0,2 | - |
Cargo | 6,8 | - | - |
| | | |
Total | 0 | 225,2025 | -11 |
The crew consists on 1 Captain, 3 Pilots (+2 for the Gig), 2 Engineers, 6 Gunners, 1 Sensor operator and 1 Officer (the XO).
The Gig pilots and the gunners are cross-trained marines. They can either serve as pilots or gunners or perform boarding.
Only the captain & the XO have single staterooms, everybody else is in double occupancy staterooms.
The ship is a good deterent for the run-of-the-mill pirates (those who don't have a military grade vessel) as it can soak turret weapons (beam & pulse lasers), although double or triple pulse laser fire can penetrate the armor. Barbette based weapons & missiles will be more dangerous.
If you want to make it a bit cheaper & weaker, remove the brigs & the rad shielding. make the drives & powerplant budgets ones (with +25% volume) & reduce the armor to 7 & the cargo to 5.8dt. The ship will now start to get hurt by pulse lasers (especially triple turrets). Cost will drop to 190MCr (without including the 10% for common ship designs).
As pointed out already, the Gazelle is designed to look like a ship designed under significantly different ruleset with many fewer options for optimization.
I disagree that it is bad at its job, though. But that depends on what you think its job is. Charted Space fiction has generally posited that the significant majority of pirates are operating from converted merchantmen. The Gazelle can absolutely wreck a converted merchantman with those long range particle barbettes and its thrust 5, which makes it a serious threat to most pirates and to anyone objecting to a revenue inspection.
More importantly, anti piracy and revenue cutter work are about deterence. Even if you have a pirate ship that is tougher than a Gazelle, are you actually going to attack a target when a Gazelle is nearby? If you are purpose built commerce raiding warship, maybe. But a pirate? Not likely. Those barbettes have a serious chance to do more damage to you than any profit you might make from the raid, even if you can beat the Gazelle and still capture the prize.
Destroying pirates and their bases is what full warships are tasked to do.
I disagree that it is bad at its job, though. But that depends on what you think its job is. Charted Space fiction has generally posited that the significant majority of pirates are operating from converted merchantmen. The Gazelle can absolutely wreck a converted merchantman with those long range particle barbettes and its thrust 5, which makes it a serious threat to most pirates and to anyone objecting to a revenue inspection.
More importantly, anti piracy and revenue cutter work are about deterence. Even if you have a pirate ship that is tougher than a Gazelle, are you actually going to attack a target when a Gazelle is nearby? If you are purpose built commerce raiding warship, maybe. But a pirate? Not likely. Those barbettes have a serious chance to do more damage to you than any profit you might make from the raid, even if you can beat the Gazelle and still capture the prize.
Destroying pirates and their bases is what full warships are tasked to do.
AnotherDilbert
Emperor Mongoose
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/242277/t5-gazelle-class-close-escortsThat could be an entire book
Gazelle Operator's Manual?
Geir
Emperor Mongoose
I liked the version of the Gazelles from PoD's Treasure ships, with missile turrets instead of particle barbettes (holdover from MgTv1?). Seems more practical (well, they also had nukes, which is the same radiation problem, but, whatever).
I'm one of the first to toss off a 'that's a stupid design' line, but in reality sometimes less-than-optimal design decisions get put into production because somebody's favorite shipyard could produce them easily, or there was this giant surplus of particle barbettes, or a shortage of pulse lasers, or some component where just easier to produce over a large set of yards across the large set of stars in the Third Imperium. A few decades later there are thousands of sub-optimal ships, but everybody knows how to work with them, so why change it. And those are only the 'good reasons'.
The bad reasons are the obvious: the Duke of Whozit's nephew fancies himself as a naval architect, the kickbacks on crystaliron were better, and the old 'yeah, we really had no idea what we were doing, but it won the bid'(*cough* Starliner, Block I Apollo). Or:
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today" - Vice Admiral Sir David Beatty at Jutland (yes, he was a full admiral and earl later, but not a Jutland)
In this case, the battlecruisers kept blowing up (a bad thing, really) because the fleet really didn't have a good handle on safely working with cordite, new technology at the time. Or: some things that seemed okay on paper aren't as well thought out or implemented as they ought to have been and only actual use shows the problem (*cough* Starliner again).
I'm one of the first to toss off a 'that's a stupid design' line, but in reality sometimes less-than-optimal design decisions get put into production because somebody's favorite shipyard could produce them easily, or there was this giant surplus of particle barbettes, or a shortage of pulse lasers, or some component where just easier to produce over a large set of yards across the large set of stars in the Third Imperium. A few decades later there are thousands of sub-optimal ships, but everybody knows how to work with them, so why change it. And those are only the 'good reasons'.
The bad reasons are the obvious: the Duke of Whozit's nephew fancies himself as a naval architect, the kickbacks on crystaliron were better, and the old 'yeah, we really had no idea what we were doing, but it won the bid'(*cough* Starliner, Block I Apollo). Or:
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today" - Vice Admiral Sir David Beatty at Jutland (yes, he was a full admiral and earl later, but not a Jutland)
In this case, the battlecruisers kept blowing up (a bad thing, really) because the fleet really didn't have a good handle on safely working with cordite, new technology at the time. Or: some things that seemed okay on paper aren't as well thought out or implemented as they ought to have been and only actual use shows the problem (*cough* Starliner again).
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