Shadow Skirmish PL ship ideas.

[Stonehorse]

Broken off from the P+P Shadow changes thread.

Per Matt's request for Shadow Skirmish ideas and from another thread, go ahead and rip this idea apart and see how much of it is worth it.

Czuschlag’s

Shadow "Infiltrator" or "Corsair":

Just as Shadow Ships evolve in power as they age, so too can Shadow Fighters. It is more unusual for this to occur, however, as combat experience is at a premium, and the Shadows are loathe to expose themselves unnecessarily. The attrition rate for Shadow Fighters is also imposing. However, the result is a substantial improvement in capability, durability, and independence.

Speed: 12....Damage: 13(5)....Craft: Special, See Below
Turns: SM....Crew: - ...............Special Rules: Atmospheric, Dodge 4+,
Hull: 5.........Troops: - ..................Shields: 3/2

Weapons:

Polarity Cannon ------ 8" ---- T ---- 3 AD ---- AP, Double Damage

Special Rules:

Hangars: Shadow Infiltrators may be housed and launched from Shadow Ships as per the Fighter dispersal tube. It counts as one flight for purposes of Hangar use.

Merging: Shadow Infiltrators may only merge with Shadow Ships. After 1 turn of merging, the Infiltrator can be considered to be inside the Shadow Ship at the discretion of the Shadow player. It may be deployed as per the Fighter Dispersal Tube. This is the only access to Self-Repair that Shadow Infiltrators have.

Expert: This is the farthest that a Shadow Fighter can grow. It can never buy Personality Traits with experience dice.

Stonehorse’s

Shadow Phantom.

Speed: 12....Damage: 15
Turns: SM....Crew: - ...............Special Rules: Atmospheric, Dodge 5+,
Hull: 5.........Troops: - ..................Shields: 4/2

Weapons:

Polarity Cannon ------ 8" ---- F ---- 6 AD ---- AP, Double Damage

Ghost ship.
The Shadow Phantom ignores the pinning rule, it can also not be targeted by any Scout ship... friend or foe.

Phantom Strike.
The Phantom ship can forfeit it's movement to gain the Twin-Linked special rule on it's Polarity Cannon.

Fragile interior.
Due to the advance technology any critical damage result in any area that rolls a 6 destroys the Phantom ship out right.

Please feel free to add any other ideas, and/or comments.

 

[H]

sounds like the Genesis of the drakh raiders, and in that at least makes sense.

 

[Da Boss]

I actually like them both - interesting ideas and concepts

 

[Clanger]

As a non Shadow Player. I do like the Shadow Infiltrator idea. The other Shadow ship type evolve, so why not the fighter.

The Phantom idea is okay but I think the damage is a bit much and the AD of the weapons seems a bit OTT for a skirmish level ship. I would say make the Damage 15 (no pinning) and reduce the AD to 6.

 

[Hindsight]

I don't see any issues, worth trying out.

 

[Ministalker]

Both ships have good ideas. Thus, I am not happy with the turreted weapon of the Corsair. it should be F like all aother fleet ships.
Shields should also be 3/3 IMHO.
Good ideas anyway to fill this infamous gap at skirmish PL

 

[locarno24]

Agreed. Fighter flights don't have turreted weapons - the T arc represents the fact that there's 6 seperate fighters who (even ignoring their manouvrability) could theoretically be pointing their fixed-forward guns in 6 directions at once.

A 'Drakh Raider Inspiration' ship sort of makes sense. Granted, the Shadows wouldn't have sat down and taught the Drakh to build them (unlike the Vorlons with the Minbari) but the super-super-heavy fighter is such a unique concept that it'd be interesting to know where the concept came from.

Speed: 12

Remember that as a capital ship it now has the Superb Manouvrability rule and can therefore burn it 24" if it drops the hammer! Drop it to 10" to match the scout....

Shields: 3/2

Seems a bit odd having a regeneration so high but not complete. Either 2/2 or 3/3 would eliminate the need to record shield status at the end of the turn - and as a skirmish-level ship that's potentially an annoyingly large amount of paperwork in a big game.

Polarity Cannon ------ 8" ---- T ---- 3 AD ---- AP, Double Damage

As noted, F makes more sense if talking about one big fighter rather than a mob of little ones - in which case it looks a bit toothless. I'd possibly recommend a 'Heavy Polarity Cannon' - the gun growing with the ship makes more sense to me than more weapons appearing - and give it SAP.

Hangars: Shadow Infiltrators may be housed and launched from Shadow Ships as per the Fighter dispersal tube. It counts as one flight for purposes of Hangar use.

Can you launch infiltrators and fighters with the same dispersal tube shot?

Merging: Shadow Infiltrators may only merge with Shadow Ships. After 1 turn of merging, the Infiltrator can be considered to be inside the Shadow Ship at the discretion of the Shadow player. It may be deployed as per the Fighter Dispersal Tube. This is the only access to Self-Repair that Shadow Infiltrators have.

Fair enough - note: It's still a shadow ship so some self repair should be there (even if it's only self-repair 1). Fighters only don't get it because there's no way a fighter would survive a hit from a capital-ship grade gun in the first place. I'd just have it able to be recovered exactly like fighters - retrieving what's basically with a fighter with delusions of adequacy shouldn't stop a shadow dreadnought firing.....

Expert: This is the farthest that a Shadow Fighter can grow. It can never buy Personality Traits with experience dice.

A shadow design that doesn't leave room for evolutionary growth?
Seems odd.





The other option, of course, is a boarding craft to deliver either soldier races or the shadows themselves (if you've really, really annoyed them) - the things that were boarding B5 in one of the alternate vision thingeys. Basically a shadow version of the Claweagle - which if shadowtech is liberally applied, probably qualifies for Skirmish priority.

Give it some light multi-phased cutters to slice its way through the hull and you're good to go.

Shadow Invader

Speed: 10....Damage: 13(5)....Craft: -
Turns: SM....Crew: - ...............Special Rules: Shields 2/2, Self-Repair 1
Hull: 5.........Troops: 5

Weapons:

Light Multi-Phased Cutters ------ 10" ---- F ---- 3 AD ---- TL, MB

The Invader may initiate a boarding action, simply by moving into contact with an enemy ship and succeeding in an opposed Crew Quality test. See the Claweagle rules.....

 

[CZuschlag]

To Locarno,

Point-by-point (not a refutation! Just what I was thinking of at the time...)

1). Speed 12.

Yes, I remembered Superb Maneouverability. Lunges of 24" were fully part of the idea. That lunge is what makes it so dangerous. It is silly-fast.

I just kept it at the same as the original value. Doesn't have to be, but if the fighter was SM at 12", shouldn't the enhanced fighter be? That was the thinking, anyways.

2). Shields 3/2.

Just an approximation. I don't like full regen on a Shadow in the main; I want sustained attacks on the same target rewarded. Just me. Shadows don't have much paperwork usually anyways --- there's no crew.

3). T arc

This came wholly from my desire to A). not give any Antifighter dice, B). not give two weapon systems, and C). give this ship a shot at dealing with a fighter flight or two. If its role is observer/infiltrator, dealing with a few fighters will have to be part of its profile, and, right now, without a T arc or antifighter, it can't.

4). Only 3 AD.

Here's the comprimise. Fantastic manouverability+T arc+Skirmish means you have to be bad at something. I chose firepower in this design. You have to be clever on how you use these things; if this is all you have, they have to swarm up, especially if they want to beat interceptors. Or you have to pick on things you can do damage to --- things without interceptors, or depleted interceptors, or fighter escorts, or so forth.

I wanted to keep the Polarity Cannon as it fits with the fighter itself. No drastic change, just an evolution of the design.

5). Can you launch?

Yes.

6). Merging/Self Repair

Absolutely not. A ship like this, or even the speed 10 version, that can exit from the combat and reasonably regenerate itself within 6 turns and come back almost fresh, while being so fast with Superb Maneoverability and as to be virtually uncatchable is not acceptable or balanced. The Skirmish Shadow should never have self-repair. Ever. That's what mama is for.

Note that due to the extreme penalties on the Shadow Ship in such a merging, you will almost never see this over the table! The rule is there to allow for self-repair use over campaign turns (remember, you're still paying double costs for reinforcements, so you should get the benefit that you're paying for!)

7). Expert

This ship should never be allowed to sniff the Evasive Personality in a campaign, ever. Period. That combination is just busted.

----------------

I think, even as it currently is, this ship has one role that it does very well --- hunt down small Scouts and wipe them out. Sho'kar, Jashakar Vi, Eyehawks, and the like are its prey. It should fear heavy fighters such as the Frazi and Sky Serpents, however. I could see changing this to F arc and adding a die or so; however, it can't find a fleet role for it that is coherent with a universe of lots and lots of fighters.

I don't know if all these design ideas work to make a balanced ship. It may not; it has extreme defensive capabilities for such a small craft. Again, I only wrote what my original ideas were --- no guarantee that they are right!

I should also clarify that they cannot Psychic Scream.

 

[Stonehorse]

The Phantom idea is okay but I think the damage is a bit much and the AD of the weapons seems a bit OTT for a skirmish level ship. I would say make the Damage 15 (no pinning) and reduce the AD to 6.

Many people have said this, my thoughts where to have the gun short ranged but very powerful, it is a knife fighter.

The damage was there to make up for the fragile interior, with all the advanced tech it makes it more prone to blowing up.

I'll edit the ship to be as you have suggested as other people have raised the same concern.

The other option, of course, is a boarding craft to deliver either soldier races or the shadows themselves (if you've really, really annoyed them) - the things that were boarding B5 in one of the alternate vision thingeys. Basically a shadow version of the Claweagle - which if shadowtech is liberally applied, probably qualifies for Skirmish priority.

Give it some light multi-phased cutters to slice its way through the hull and you're good to go.

Shadow Invader

Speed: 10....Damage: 13(5)....Craft: -
Turns: SM....Crew: - ...............Special Rules: Shields 2/2, Self-Repair 1
Hull: 5.........Troops: 5

Weapons:

Light Multi-Phased Cutters ------ 10" ---- F ---- 3 AD ---- TL, MB

The Invader may initiate a boarding action, simply by moving into contact with an enemy ship and succeeding in an opposed Crew Quality test. See the Claweagle rules.....

That is very good, and will give a lot of players a shock, I'd love to see a Minbari Sharlin War Cruiser being boarded by several of these ships :twisted:

 

[skavendan]

I know it's only a small ship but that could phase in and assault a ship on turn 1. Seems like a game winner skirmish class takes out a war class ?

 

[Foxmeister]

I know it's only a small ship but that could phase in and assault a ship on turn 1. Seems like a game winner skirmish class takes out a war class ?

Very good point! Personally, I'm not keen on the idea of boarding actions from the Shadows - in these sorts of situations they would tend to work through their agents.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Burger]

I know it's only a small ship but that could phase in and assault a ship on turn 1. Seems like a game winner skirmish class takes out a war class ?

Very good point! Personally, I'm not keen on the idea of boarding actions from the Shadows - in these sorts of situations they would tend to work through their agents.

Regards,

Dave

Maybe Shadows should get allies? 1 FAP of League or Centauri or 3rd Age EA?
Though, they didn't fight alongside their allies in the series. Maybe you can have 1 FAP of allies in a campaign, but you can't field them mixed with real Shadows ships? You can either field Shadows or your allies only.

 

[skavendan]

O imagine Gaim + shadows alliance.

Not very good on the actuall canon.

 

[Burger]

Not very good on the actuall canon.

The Shadows used the Gaim to attack the Brakiri, and start all the league races warring with each other. I think it is very good on the canon.

 

[skavendan]

You never see shadow ships actually hanging around backing up other ships. They use temptation to cause there wars. Don't worry we will protect you should things go wrong. Go off to war take your hole fleet.

And actually if i remember right the Gaim ambasador says no I wont help you because we are not attacked may not be attacked if we fight we noticed we invite attack show us you have equal power then we will consider.

 

[katadder]

I quite like that for campaign rules.
I have a similar one for ISA. ISA members can buy one FAP from the ISA list in campaigns but these can only be used in defensive battles unless fighting ISA then cannot be used at all.
this also gets rid of the usual ISA allies rules as they are strong enough to stand alone now IMO.

 

[Stonehorse]

I know it's only a small ship but that could phase in and assault a ship on turn 1. Seems like a game winner skirmish class takes out a war class ?

Good point, how about if it couldn't use the boarding action in the same turn it uses it's Hyperspace Mastery?

This way it jumps in and has to endure a lot of enemy fire power before it can launch an assault in the following turn. With such a low pin number it could just be pinned in place while some Fighters take it out.

 

[Burger]

Boarding actions with Shadows is just silly. Sorry!

 

[skavendan]

I'd much rather it spat out 5 pods all of a sudden. could use the old Gaim boarding action rules.

Probably lower the number of pods and give it Hull 5 Shields 1

 

[Da Boss]

Boarding actions with Shadows is just silly. Sorry!

Dont the Shadows board B5 in the alt future episode? Or at least "Soldiers of Darkness"?