Shadow Raid, Why Bother?

[Vye King]

Hi all.
Our regular gaming group has just recruted a 6th player, a Shadows player. (Interesting side note, that makes my ISA, a Drakh, a Narn, a Centuri, a Vorlon and a Shadow, 3 pairs of mortol enamys) In his first game we played our standerd 5 point raid, and the EA demolished the Shadows for no losses. Halfway through we decided that the Shadow Ship in armaggedon and the Shadow Ship in sky full of stars were different ships and exchanged some of his ships for a war level Shadow Ship. But eaven with a fresh new war ship on the 3rd turn he still didn't manage to kill anything. So how do you make the shadows playable without destroying the game balance? We are going to try adding 2 rules to the ancient damage chart;

1. Any fighter attacking an ancient automaticle rolls a 1 on the damage chart. (having a starfury able to do 12 points of damage to a shadow just isn't right)

2. All double damage weapons do not multiply their damage. All triple damage weapons count as double damage.

What do you think?
Vye King

 

[Triggy]

The problem is that the fleet is (mostly) balanced but only at Battle PL and above. The reason for this is that good as the Shadow Scout is, it's a scout, not a warship. Therefore in any game where you have to take numbers of them, they will generally perform badly. If you wanted a quick fix then have a "Destroyer" variant with a 10AD Phasing Pulse Cannon but without Scout. It doesn't give them a huge amount of variety but at least allows them to compete at lower Priority Levels.

 

[Da Boss]

They are limited buy their fleet choice - they do need a bit moe - as do Vorlons - apparently the ISA is more than sorted out and any way has the Alliance rule:

Also wait till you play ISA against Shadows and see how quickly they die! Especially if he has White Star fighters /carrier.

there is a post about 2nd ed Shadows that I started which has a number of rules suggestions from experienced players that you could try - and let us know which work?

have fun

 

[Triggy]

Shadows will be looked at in due course and will hopefully be made viable at lower PLs as well as higher ones. We have a number of ideas, as does the message board and something will come out of the debris to make a lovely Shadows list

 

[Nightmares about Minbari]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again!

Shadows and Vorlons both need expanded fleet lists!

Each need 6-10 different ships, including a few variants on basic hulls here and there, such as a Vorlon carrier or scout.

I'm not going away!

 

[Triggy]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again!

Shadows and Vorlons both need expanded fleet lists!

Each need 6-10 different ships, including a few variants on basic hulls here and there, such as a Vorlon carrier or scout.

I'm not going away!

Well, the Shadows may need a slightly expanded list, these two races will be perfectly playable with even a limited selection so long as each choice is a good one.

 

[Nightmares about Minbari]

Playable yes, but would be much more fun with expanded fleets.

We are here to have fun arn't we? I've not missed something?

 

[Triggy]

It's not something most would be against, it's more that there's limited on-screen evidence to back up this variety.

 

[Shadow Queen]

We never seen the White Star Carrier or Gunship or the White Star Fighters on the screen, so why not hybrid some shadow stuff

 

[Da Boss]

A good majority of the ships were / have never been seen on screen - for most races.......

With the apparent reusing of older and smaller models for same ships it seems a golden opportunity to add ships at different levels - eg rather than the Vorlon Destroyer with wings open and shut two different ships would be much more fun to play with and against - variety is the spice of life?

If that is not a good idea - either hybrid Younger race ships or minions which again would save producing new ships.

 

[Nightmares about Minbari]

Thinking about the series and how many ships actually seen on screen:

Earthforce 4 - Omega, shadow omega, hyperion & nove

Minbari 2 - Tinashi in the previous shadow war and Sharlin

Centauri 2 - Vorchan & battlecruiser

Narn 1 - heavy cruiser

Shadows 2 - shadowship (hate the name shadow crab myself) & scout

Vorlons 2 or 3 - Can't remember if we see a light cruiser in the big fleet shots or not

Drazi 1 - sunhawk

Vree 1 - Xill battle saucer

Abbai 0 - unless I've missed something

Brakiri 1 - Avioki

By that rational, both shadows and vorlons should have the dozen to two dozen ships in their fleets that the other races have!

Come on guys, give em more ships!

 

[emperorpenguin]

Thinking about the series and how many ships actually seen on screen:

Narn 1 - heavy cruiser

Shadows 2 - shadowship (hate the name shadow crab myself) & scout

Vree 1 - Xill battle saucer

!

Wrong! There are two Narn ships, the T'Loth (season 1) and G'Quan (seasons 2-5)

2 Vree also the Xorr is seen in Deathwalker

We are indeed looking at extra ships for Shadows and Vorlons don't worry!

 

[Nightmares about Minbari]

I thought I'd missed one or two, but the basic point remains valid, each race in the series only got a couple of ship designs, everything else is post series addition!

These going to be varients based on existing figures or new designs, or can't you say?

 

[Locutus9956]

There was a thread about this some time back but regardless (and not counting shuttle craft and fighters), the ones you missed that I can think of:

Centauri 3: Vorchan, Demos, Secundus/Primus (ok so Demos Vorchan are the same really but you see them firing torpedoes in one ep)

Vorlons 3: We never see the light cruiser but we do see destroyers and tranports seperately (if you assume the destroyers are the ones we see fighting)

Shadows 3: We also see the deathcloud and thats a ship in the game

Drazi 2: We see Warbird too. Look at the engine cowlings throughout the show, we DO see both types

Vree 2: Xorr are shown in the pilot and some earlier episodes

But I digress.... Shadows and Vorlons dont have a myriad of desings because theyve advanced to the point where they dont NEED various ships for different roles. Realistically there arent many tactical situations that cant be resolved with 'Shadowship to the face' Im all for giving them more varients at lower PLs but not too much. Frankly I really dont think the Shadows/Vorlons should be standard fleets they should be special like the ancients and not designed for standard battles.

 

[Nightmares about Minbari]

Just because you don't like shadows and vorlons doesn't mean the rest of use should be denied their use as fully fledged fleets. You don't have to use them if you don't want to. But, and forgive me if I've the wrong end of the stick here, you seam to want to stop other people having them too?

 

[Nightmares about Minbari]

PS, almost forgot, if you don't like them, simply set your games 2262 onwards, then you don't have to worry!
Happy blatting!

 

[emperorpenguin]

Well we're not at the Shadows/Vorlons yet but ideas have been floated is all I can say really

 

[Flogus]

Earthforces : + Olympus (on the Line battle) & Explorer

Centauri : + Corvan

 

[Locutus9956]

Im not saying I dont like shadows and vorlons, far from it. But if you weaken them to the point where theyre balanced fleet lists at low PLs then frankly they dont feel like shadows and vorlons any more.

Were talking about races who are supposed to be about as far beyond us in terms of technology as we are over ants.

I want shadows and Vorlons in the game but I want them to be as powerful as they should be. Armageddon Vorlons for me feel about right though I think theyre actually a little TOO good to be truly fair at the moment (this is fine but if you want them be playable in tourneys and campaigns doesnt quite work).

Shadows on the other hand I happen to think DO need work but I dont want to see TOO many new desings made up. Varients on the existing hull types Im all for though. Back in B5Wars there were at least 4 or 5 Varients of the 'shadow crab' and about 3 scout hulls too.

 

[emperorpenguin]

Earthforces : + Olympus (on the Line battle) & Explorer

Centauri : + Corvan

Olympus in ITB Explorer in season 2 but where was the Corvan? :?