Shadow Queen
Mongoose
ah nit picking
Shadow Fighters - Just why
- Thread starter Da Boss
- Start date
Iain McGhee
Mongoose
scratch, scratch, scratch 
The author is mistaken. No traits, including shields, protect you from Anti-Fighter fire or during dogfights.
In fact the sentence you quoted seems a bit strange, is it talking about a dogfight or about anti-fighter fire? Maybe it's just out of context but it seems weird.
In fact the sentence you quoted seems a bit strange, is it talking about a dogfight or about anti-fighter fire? Maybe it's just out of context but it seems weird.
Silvereye said:
The Tactics article, I have to say, is a fan-based production.
Greg Smith
Mongoose
Burger said:
It is talking about Vorlon fighters in a dogfight, so anti-fighter and dogfighting in the same mix.
Whilst the numbers may be off, I can imagine that even half a dozen or so of these things would mess with a vorchan pack very efficiently. Anti-fighterless gunships are, as noted, utterly, utterly dead meat when you let the shadow's pet attack dogs loose on them.
2 wings - the equivalent of a vorchan - can drop in from hyperspace in a weak arc and utterly avoid retalliation. 3 AD AP DD per flight (total 6)translates to an average of 14-15 damage against a hull 5 target - a vorchan blown to pieces in each pass.
They are a weaker unit because you often have no choice in fielding them, but they are the best 'prey on the weak' unit that the shadows have - essentially allowing you to devastate lighter ships that you don't want to waste slicer beam shots on.
Personally I do think that they could do with an extra flight, but maybe I'm just not good enough at using them.
I will admit that the list of ships without antifighter is more than you might think at first glance - anyone hoping to take these ships against shadows is forced to bring a long a sizable force of fighters to protect agaisnt the horrific damage potential of spitfire flocks.
Abbai
None, really. Tough.
Brakiri
Shakara scout
Centauri
Haven Patrol Boat
Kutai Gunship
Darkner Fast Attack Frigate
Demos Warship
Morgrath Frigate
Vorchan Warship
Altarian Destroyer
Civilian
Civilian Trader
Dilgar
Jashakar Tae Torpedo Ship
Jashakar Vi Scout Ship
Rohric Assault Ship
Mankhat Dreadnought
Mankhat Py Bombardment Dreadnought
Drakh
Every capital ship (and GEG is actually beatable with their bosses guns...)
Drazi
Claweagle Direct Assault Frigate
Eyehawk Scout Cruiser
Sleekbird Assault Cruiser
Sunhawk Battlecruiser
Darkhawk Missile Cruiser
Jumphawk Command Cruiser
Solarhawk Battlecruiser
Strikehawk Battle Carrier
Warbird Cruiser
Firehawk Advanced Cruiser
EA (Early)
Hermes Transport
Tethys Cutter
Tethys Laser Boat
Tethys Missile Boat
Olympus Corvette
Avenger Heavy Carrier
Nova Dreadnought
Earth Alliance (3rd Age)
Hermes Transport
Olympus Corvette
Avenger Heavy Carrier
Nova Dreadnought
Earth Alliance (Crusade)
Hermes Transport
Gaim
...Not a chance
ISA
Blue Star
The Liandra
White Star
White Star II
White Star Gunship
Minbari
You're joking, right?
Narn
Ka'Toc Battle Destroyer
Sho'Kar Light Scout Cruiser
T'Rakk Frigate
Dag'Kar Missile Frigate
T'Loth Assault Cruiser
T'Rann Heavy Carrier
Var'Nic Long Range Destroyer
pak'ma'ra
Mmmmm....plasma-fried shadows. Excellent with BBQ sauce....
Psi Corps
Shadowcloak Escort
Raiders
Nope.
Other Shadows
Anyone....probably (bizarrely) the best target!
Vorlons
Not. Even. The. Fighters.
Vree
Xouch! Not only do they all have flak, they all have insane quantities of flak....
Nice analysis, Lorcano - you could get an S&P article out of that 
I think the problem people have with them is that they're somewhat...binary....in effectiveness (if that makes sense).
It's not that they're bad, exactly, but they're either ineffectual or the most terrifying thing since the draft script for Legend of the Rangers. People are objecting because that is their only patrol level choice.
Again - to be fair - that only matters in a 1 point skirmish or < 3 point patrol (neither of which comes up terribly often) as even 4 patrol points allow a shadow scout on the field, which is a pretty decent combatant even without its ability paint a target.
A similar objection popped up when the pak'ma'ra first arrived - with few, slow-loading, interceptable double damage or even triple guns, the difference in effectiveness of the fleet between enemies who use interceptors and enemies who don't sometimes verges on the ridiculous.
In this case it's a case of 'can you efficiently shoot down enemy fighters?'
If 'yes', that means that the Spitfire is basically a frazi with a little over twice the cost and a little over twice the damage potential (and twice the resiliance to secondary weapons fire)....but the half numbers makes it less able to do its job because one kill from interceptors or flak hurt so much more.
If your fighter defences are dodgy, then you have to bear in mind that you're looking at a wing of fighters with the same forward firepower as a railgun-armed Hyperion cruiser.
I'll have to have a try with a few lower-level games with and without the fighters. I've only ever really used them in conjunction with the bigger ships. Are there any especially gifted Shadow players who have sage advice to offer on the correct use of fighter hyperspace strikes?
It's not that they're bad, exactly, but they're either ineffectual or the most terrifying thing since the draft script for Legend of the Rangers. People are objecting because that is their only patrol level choice.
Again - to be fair - that only matters in a 1 point skirmish or < 3 point patrol (neither of which comes up terribly often) as even 4 patrol points allow a shadow scout on the field, which is a pretty decent combatant even without its ability paint a target.
A similar objection popped up when the pak'ma'ra first arrived - with few, slow-loading, interceptable double damage or even triple guns, the difference in effectiveness of the fleet between enemies who use interceptors and enemies who don't sometimes verges on the ridiculous.
In this case it's a case of 'can you efficiently shoot down enemy fighters?'
If 'yes', that means that the Spitfire is basically a frazi with a little over twice the cost and a little over twice the damage potential (and twice the resiliance to secondary weapons fire)....but the half numbers makes it less able to do its job because one kill from interceptors or flak hurt so much more.
If your fighter defences are dodgy, then you have to bear in mind that you're looking at a wing of fighters with the same forward firepower as a railgun-armed Hyperion cruiser.
I'll have to have a try with a few lower-level games with and without the fighters. I've only ever really used them in conjunction with the bigger ships. Are there any especially gifted Shadow players who have sage advice to offer on the correct use of fighter hyperspace strikes?
locarno24 said:
Yes and no - Its a good discussion point but when discussing anti fighter the ability of Anti fighter to be projected to other ships by Escorts should be remembered - Maximus for the Vorchans / Demos.
The Drakh and the Shadows being obviously very lax in this area - so much for evolution through combat :lol:
Secondly the ability of fighters to guard ships is important.
Then is should be remebered that their guns are interceptable which is a weakness............ (again Maximus is 8) for this for the mentioned ships)
I still would think either 3 or pos 4 flights per wing or better fighters (longer range) but hey I think most of the arguments on both sides are on this slightly lengthy thread somewhere for people to decide their view
have fun
For what it's worth, my vote in any change would be soley for a bigger wing. Shields working against flak is a nice idea, but I'm really not a fan of anything that involves record-keeping on fighter wings as it becomes a right git in larger games.
Spitfires really are the attack dogs - bomber 'long range' edge doesn't fit that, nor does the top-gun high dogfight score. They swarm over your capital ships and blow them apart....I think the statline represents this well; the only argument is how swarmy is swarmy - as noted earlier, the best point of reference (if you insist on having one) is to think of them as an uber-frazi with a jump point.
Sulfurdown
Mongoose
There isn't any bookkeeping, either the flight is dead or it isn't. And Frazi come in packs of 5(3RR) with the potential Gorith-5 escorts, not packs of 2(6RR) alone.
Hi, it's my first post here, but I've been reading this forum for some time. Sorry for bringing the topic back from the dead, but it was still alive before I left on vacation, and I wanted to add my opinion.
At first I wanted to make a long post comparing shadow fighters to other races flights. But than, you can do that all yourself. Simply consider to which of these groups are the shadow fighters closer:
Group A:
Rutarian
White Star Fighter
or
Group B:
Tzymm
Riva
Sky Serpent
Figters from "A" are good bombers, but also have nice, if not great dogfight ability. Fighters from "B" are only good bombers. Shadow fighters are not ultimate bombers in any way.
I can see three solutions:
1. As they are (in my biased opinion) Tzymm level fighters make them 3/wing.
or
2. Give them decent dogfight ability, to make them Rutarian level fighters. Increase their dogfight or let the shields work in dogfight somehow.
or
3. Make them ultimate bombers - increase their range or at least let the shields work against anti-fighter...
At first I wanted to make a long post comparing shadow fighters to other races flights. But than, you can do that all yourself. Simply consider to which of these groups are the shadow fighters closer:
Group A:
Rutarian
White Star Fighter
or
Group B:
Tzymm
Riva
Sky Serpent
Figters from "A" are good bombers, but also have nice, if not great dogfight ability. Fighters from "B" are only good bombers. Shadow fighters are not ultimate bombers in any way.
I can see three solutions:
1. As they are (in my biased opinion) Tzymm level fighters make them 3/wing.
or
2. Give them decent dogfight ability, to make them Rutarian level fighters. Increase their dogfight or let the shields work in dogfight somehow.
or
3. Make them ultimate bombers - increase their range or at least let the shields work against anti-fighter...
Sulfurdown
Mongoose
If my numbers are right - giving the 3/wing would put the Shadow Fighter at just under the Sky Serpent and a little over the Frazi in terms of firepower per wing.
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I personally would see the S.Fighters get +1 per wing and then let the Shield work against Anti-Fighter as a counter measure to keeping it at such a short range weapon. The speed, initative and shields might see it as more survivable against capital ships and fighters (by way of evasion) which allows it to do it's job without becoming overly powerful.
Additionally I'd swipe the Gaim "Pilot Drone" rule or provide the Shadow Ships with Carrier 1. Each has it's own quirks - though Carrier 1 would allow the 'free fighter' mentality where one can deploy fighter wings extracted from the ship with no concern for the RR costs; the "PD" rule forces a player to field those very high ships if they want to get the free fighters. Adding a "PD" rule would probably be more in keeping with the Shadow history and feel (save the Carrier Trait for an official Shadow Carrier).
The fewer number of changes that need to be made to ships, etc the better, that's why I'm more in favor of making some slight alterations to the Rules or Faction Specials. Making a slight adjustment in power hopefully keeps them from swinging the pendulum.
__________________________________________________________________________
I personally would see the S.Fighters get +1 per wing and then let the Shield work against Anti-Fighter as a counter measure to keeping it at such a short range weapon. The speed, initative and shields might see it as more survivable against capital ships and fighters (by way of evasion) which allows it to do it's job without becoming overly powerful.
Additionally I'd swipe the Gaim "Pilot Drone" rule or provide the Shadow Ships with Carrier 1. Each has it's own quirks - though Carrier 1 would allow the 'free fighter' mentality where one can deploy fighter wings extracted from the ship with no concern for the RR costs; the "PD" rule forces a player to field those very high ships if they want to get the free fighters. Adding a "PD" rule would probably be more in keeping with the Shadow history and feel (save the Carrier Trait for an official Shadow Carrier).
The fewer number of changes that need to be made to ships, etc the better, that's why I'm more in favor of making some slight alterations to the Rules or Faction Specials. Making a slight adjustment in power hopefully keeps them from swinging the pendulum.
Sulfurdown
Mongoose
MwuahaHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...
threadomancy.. it's grrrrrrrRRRREAT!
threadomancy.. it's grrrrrrrRRRREAT!
Locutus9956
Mongoose
Just to add some input to keep this monstosity alive a while longer: Having shields work vs AF/Dogfighting doesnt add ANY bookeeping at the moment since the only fighters with shields (the shadow fighter) has 1 shield which it fully regenerates every tunr. Basically all it means is it takes 2 hits in a turn to kill one. The only way I can possibly see it requiring ANY sort of bookeeping is if you got only 1 hit on some fighters with AF fire and then were fining on them with regular weapons in the same turn, but thats hardly dificult really is it? just stick a dice or something next to a fighter thats already been hit.
Its the same way I do interceptors basically to avoid bookeeping, I just put a bunch of dice next to an interceptor armed ship when someone starts shooting at it and leave them on the required target number next to it (so a ship with 3 interceptor dice left needing 4+ to stop a shot would have 3 dice with the 4 side up next to it and so on)
Its the same way I do interceptors basically to avoid bookeeping, I just put a bunch of dice next to an interceptor armed ship when someone starts shooting at it and leave them on the required target number next to it (so a ship with 3 interceptor dice left needing 4+ to stop a shot would have 3 dice with the 4 side up next to it and so on)
