Shadow Fighters - Just why
- Thread starter Da Boss
- Start date
Stonehorse
Mongoose
angelus2000 said:
It's a nice idea, just a little too complex. The two best way I can see a fix for the Shadow Fighters without having to change/break any game mechanics, would be to:
1) Increase the size of the wing to include 3 flights, or 2) Keep the same number of flights in a wing and allow fighters to be kept off the board in Hyperspace regardless of mission played.
Da Boss said:Oh and Zeru - I thik you may be misunderstanding a bit of the Shadow rules on fighter spawning given your other post - now if they had fleet carrier it would work that way.....................
thanks for clearing that up, my friend sure thinks the Shadow War and Armageddon sucks now though
Greg Smith
Mongoose
Lord David the Denied said:
I don't think there is anything canonical that says Vorlons were actually involved in the design and construction of the White Star fleet (correct me if I'm wrong). Similarly with the Shadow Omega, nothing was said in the series about how they were constructed.
We know for sure that the Vorlons weren't involved in the construction of the Victory.
Similarly the technology for the EA/Shadow-tech ships may have come from IPX finds.
Stonehorse
Mongoose
Greg Smith said:
Yes and no.
The Vorlons were not involved with the Whites Stars.
The Shadows did help out Earth Force... namely Psi Core. I've just watched the last episode of Season 3, where Sheridan goes to Z'ar'hardum (spelling?). Their is dialog of what the Shadows have done to help level the playing field after all the Vorlons involvement with other races. Plus their is that ending of an episode earlier on where Mr Morden is at Earthdome with a Psicore agent and some government offical, where he is talking about how his associates can help.
Rabidchild
Mongoose
I've said it before and I'll say it again, just make shadow ships with fighters into Fleet Carriers. Gives a bump to the dogfight abilities while the pilotless fighters have their control ships and allows the carriers to organically grow and launch new ships under the 'recovery' rule. My poor shadow fighters, they would be so good if only there weren't other fighters...
Stonehorse said:
Not quite correct. Delenn refers to the Vorlons assisting in the development/design of the White Stars when describing them to Capt. Sheridan, and Anna Sheridan, when on the WS, comments that the ship is made with Vorlon tech.
As to EA and Shadows, we have the Shadow ship that was "studied" in Syria Planum on Mars, as well as the one "test piloted" by EA that was destroyed by Jupiter's gravity well. Additionally, we see Mr. Morden sitting in an EA office after Mr. Endawi concludes his report to someone in the Clarke regime. While direct Shadow technological assistance is never proven or stated explicitly, it's implied pretty heavily for EA under Clarke.
And, yes, the 2ed. Shadow Fighter is a bit lame. :wink:
Da Boss said:
Ah, that will be your mistake
They are _not_ designed to fight Vorlons. At all.
Sulfurdown said:
Well, they _did_ get thrown out of the galaxy. . .
msprange said:Da Boss said:
Ah, that will be your mistake
They are _not_ designed to fight Vorlons. At all.
Ok but they were fighting Minbari ? I thought the Shadows were all about "Evolution through Combat?"
Also as Burger laid out very well - game balance if theya re to remain as they are why only two flights - that penalises the player not the race.............
Greg Smith
Mongoose
A question of background - whether the younger races are capable of utilising Shadow and Vorlon tech on their own.
We know the Vorlons provided the technology. But did they help design the White Stars? Or were the Minbari capable of utilising that tecnology on their own?
But there is nothing that says they are providing technology, merely that they have gotten the human telepaths onto their side, instead of the Vorlons.
That scene is only about whether anyone on B5 knows anything about the Shadow ship seen by Keffer and broadcast on ISN.
Do you know what episode that came from?
You are right - it is only implied. Tecnological improvements could equally have come from parts of the ship that the EA picked up at Syria Planum. In Z'ha'dum, Anna said:
"They analyzed the ship, took pieces of it for study later, and planted a homing device inside."
The biggest indication that the EA is capable of using Shadowtech on their own comes from the unfilmed Crusade scripts. The Excalibur tracks the Shadow Hybrid to an EA base that is constructing a Hybrid in End of the Line.
Stonehorse said:
We know the Vorlons provided the technology. But did they help design the White Stars? Or were the Minbari capable of utilising that tecnology on their own?
Stonehorse said:
But there is nothing that says they are providing technology, merely that they have gotten the human telepaths onto their side, instead of the Vorlons.
Stonehorse said:
That scene is only about whether anyone on B5 knows anything about the Shadow ship seen by Keffer and broadcast on ISN.
KJ said:
Do you know what episode that came from?
KJ said:
You are right - it is only implied. Tecnological improvements could equally have come from parts of the ship that the EA picked up at Syria Planum. In Z'ha'dum, Anna said:
"They analyzed the ship, took pieces of it for study later, and planted a homing device inside."
The biggest indication that the EA is capable of using Shadowtech on their own comes from the unfilmed Crusade scripts. The Excalibur tracks the Shadow Hybrid to an EA base that is constructing a Hybrid in End of the Line.
Sulfurdown
Mongoose
msprange said:
They got "thrown out" by philosophical movement if anything. There was no way that the younger races would have done much against either the Shadows or the Vorlons head-to-head except when they got the V&S fighting each other. Even then there were how many episodes where they were trying to find more Ancients and the only way the younger races seemed to get the attention of the Vorlons and Shadows at Coriana VI was by enlisting the aid of several other ancients. They only were able to push them out by proving that their goals (shepherding the races) were in conflict with their presence and the purpose for their war. As I understand the series.
Something that's bugged me over the weekend was the cost of the Shadow fighters, if they are supposed to swarm capital ships but they cost MORE then even Havens or Tethys which are the closest CtA has to LCV. You can't swarm a capital ship when every other race out there can mount that "point defense" in such a way that you never get through. Even the Minbari can put down more fighters and they are the most historic opposition to the Shadows (So can the Vorlons but as you said, they had an agreement that they would not directly attack the other. Though for any power not to be aware of and move to counter the abilities of their opposition seems foolish to me and the Shadows not to have been preparing for a direct conflict seems odd for a race that views evolution through conflict as the best way). The cost I'm assuming is due to the Ancient bonuses but no fighter get's more then one shot so there is no self-repair. And their ships aren't carriers so they don't re-spawn or fleet carriers (which would fit your Drone feel as they are guided by the parent ship) so they don't restore. That goes to the shields - which aren't effective versus dogfight, and more painfully versus anti-fighter weapons which the Shadow Fighter at a 2" range would always have to face, even with Hyperspace Mastery. That means that the Shield for the fighter would only be effective for when those capital ships take a pot shot at it with their main guns, usually only when they've got nothing better to shoot at, or when dodging chunks of debris (asteroid fields or explosions, which IIRC would only be from target ships exploding). Yes it will increase survivability but only in 2 out of 4 conditions and those effective two are not going to be nearly as common as the ineffective two.
You put the Anti-Fighter on Vorlons reasoning that they have super advanced technology and that it might be different system that has the derivative effect equivalent to the AAF, like the Sigma957 and their energy drain. Wouldn't it then reason that the Shadows would also have similarly advanced tech that could have derivative effects? A race that can make a Capital Ship dance through space with nearly the same mobility as a small fighter would make sense that their small craft would be equally or more mobile and mobility seems to be the defining feature of the dogfight feature.
As was said before and splashed to the core of what the Shadows are - they are a race that tries to guide the galaxy through conflict and evolution. For them to "Not do fighters" which are becoming popular with the younger races is saying that they decided not to evolve through conflict. That seems pretty anathema to what the Shadows are.
Lord David the Denied
Mongoose
Well said, that man.
Well put - better than I did and agree with all you said 
The Shadows and Vorlons left of their own choice - every ship in the Army of Light fleet was targeted by Shadow nuclear missiles and would have been destroyed if the argument had not prevailed and Lorien took his naughty children elsewhere.
Sadly we are left with a rubbish patrol choice which costs twice as much as anyone else to replace(well Vorlons cost same but get 3 flights) - for no game reason.
ah well shame really
The Shadows and Vorlons left of their own choice - every ship in the Army of Light fleet was targeted by Shadow nuclear missiles and would have been destroyed if the argument had not prevailed and Lorien took his naughty children elsewhere.
Sadly we are left with a rubbish patrol choice which costs twice as much as anyone else to replace(well Vorlons cost same but get 3 flights) - for no game reason.
ah well shame really
Now that really makes alot of sense really.
But the most concerning part gamewise for me was the realisation, that you cant actually get more fighters than Havens and such on the board.....Now it gets really on the part of who is swarming who. As many escorts as anti ship drones on the board ^^.
But the most concerning part gamewise for me was the realisation, that you cant actually get more fighters than Havens and such on the board.....Now it gets really on the part of who is swarming who. As many escorts as anti ship drones on the board ^^.
I wish they had fixed lot of the fleet list problems with 2e, but sadly they didn't. The whole fleet allocation system is very vague and leaves lot of inconsistencies when attempting to find game balance. There is tons of ships which totally make no sense where you will go.... why would I take this when I can have this or multiple of these?
Seems to me that Shadows are fodder for bombers. They have no AF and their fighters blow. Anti-ship swarm is NOT their strength; it's their weakness. Nice idea - poor execution.
Shadow "fighters" need a fix. There have been several good ideas here. The one that gets me is that shields work in dogfights and against AF. It sounds as if that very idea was playtested. I thought I read that one of the playtesters was surprised to see it doesn't work that way now. Seems like the simplest thing - just a ruling.
Shadow "fighters" need a fix. There have been several good ideas here. The one that gets me is that shields work in dogfights and against AF. It sounds as if that very idea was playtested. I thought I read that one of the playtesters was surprised to see it doesn't work that way now. Seems like the simplest thing - just a ruling.
