SF - Question About Fed Combined Drone Racks

[MongooseMatt]

ask Matthew to clarify the true intent of the rules.

This is where you are getting bogged down. The 'intent' of the rule is, as Sgt_G said, is how it is actually written. If you try to second guess something like that, you are going to tie yourself in knots over something that doesn't exist.

The ADD rule shoul be played as written. Take the text literally. It says _nothing_ about rolling dice one at a time.

 

[Keeper Nilbog]

that covers ADD, but most of this discussion appears to be over spliting Phasers for_'Defensive Fire'_ against Drone strikes. In this regard, then main question is do a set of phasers covering one arc with multiple AD have to engage 'fully' a drone swarm at ONE time (firing ALL AD), or can just an appropriate AD of phasers be assigned.

Reading the Defensive fire advanced rule (PG 16) it seems to suggest that the only limitation is whether the Phasers are assigned to offensive or defensive duties, not in that all AD have to be used at once defensively. (the way i read the rule, which is that 'OFFENSIVELY - ALL AD at once, DEFENSIVELY - AD as required to deal with targets for defensive fire, so by AD'.

 

[Finlos]

Maybe it's the old SFB player in me, but my first two games I picked as many phaser AD as I thought were necessary to defend against an incoming drone wave. Against plasmas it was "all available AD" . It would be good to know if using -some- AD on that line mean that -all further- AD were or were not available to me later in the same turn.

 

[Iain McGhee]

Reading the Defensive fire advanced rule (PG 16) it seems to suggest that the only limitation is whether the Phasers are assigned to offensive or defensive duties, not in that all AD have to be used at once defensively. (the way i read the rule, which is that 'OFFENSIVELY - ALL AD at once, DEFENSIVELY - AD as required to deal with targets for defensive fire, so by AD'.

I think it's the use of "phaser" in the Defensive Fire section that's confusing some players (particularly those used to playing SFB/FC). That refers to a phaser weapon system (line on the ship's weapon chart) rather than a single phaser.

For example, look at the "Against Drones" section. It refers to rolling a phaser's (singular) Attack Dice (plural) and then mentions Attack Die (singular) later, so it's clear they aren't using "dice" for "die" as is common (and incorrect). A single phaser doesn't have multiple AD, but a phaser weapon system does.

 

[MongooseMatt]

Okay, I think I can see the path some of you are going down. The Golden Rule in this game is Keep It Simple. If you find yourself winding down a twisting track, you have probably left the main road.

I am not entirely certain where this confusion spring from but, without wanting to pick on anyone (!), I think it began to turn on this comment;

The only weapons systems that can fire less than their full AD when used are those with the Reload trait (other than Plasma), so currently that's just Photon Torpedoes.

That is not what the rule says Furthermore, if you go one sentence back from the one I think you are reading (all in the second paragraph of Splitting Fire), it specifically gives the example of using Splitting Fire with Defensive Fire for hitting drones, torpedoes and shuttles with a single weapon - which would be multiple attacks and thus not at the same time.

 

[Iain McGhee]

Hmm. Then it's me getting confused

I wouldn't have taken that example that way at all (it's the use of or rather than and in the book, and I was ignoring shuttles there since I don't see where you get to use defensive fire on them). Obviously since you wrote it you know what you meant Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[AdmiralGrafSpee]

Fantastic, my future Kzinti DN will very much appreciate being able to break up those banks of 5 ph-3's!

-Tim

 

[Sgt_G]

The ADD rule shoul be played as written. Take the text literally. It says _nothing_ about rolling dice one at a time.

Yes, I saw that the second time thru. It was in my head because I read it here on-line before I received my rulebook. Just like the other person in this topic saying he thought seeking weapon impacts and defensive fire took place at the end of the combat phase because that's what a playtester had told him. Turns out, reading the rulebook, that's not the way it works.

Regarding split fire / withholding fire: one doesn't have to use all the AD of a given weapons system (other than Plasmas and any future weapon that says so), correct? Example, there's a very badly damaged enemy ship right in front of my Kzinti dreadnought. One more disruptor hit will kill it. The way Iain explained the rules, I would have to fire all 6 AD of disruptors at the target (assuming nothing else in arc/range). That's going to do upwars of 12 hits and make the target explode. I just want to kill it, not have it blow up in my face, so I want to use 1 AD, maybe 2 AD, to do the job. Iain said I can't do that. I say I can. So, what does Matthew say?? Thanks.

 

[Captain Jonah]

Ok just to be sure I’m clear on all this. SInce this is how I thought phasers should work but it got confusing. :roll:

ADDs first.

An ADD will engage and destroy every drone in a salvo, a salvo being all the drones launched from the attack of a single ship. Roll a D6 for each drone destroyed in the salvo, if any(one or more) of those dice come up one then the ADD rating is reduced by one (and only one). Once the ADD hits zero it is out of ammo and useless.

Defensive fire.

Phasers may be used offensively or defensively.

Durring the attack phase a ship must fire all offensive phasers but can engage multiple targets as required. All heavy weapons are also be fired in the ships attack phase, excepting Photons ( and ESGs, Hellboress etc when they arrive) with the reload trait can fire any number the player wishes from one to the maximum number on the ship (BC flaws aside). No offensive weapon may be fired at any time other than during the ships attack action.

When fired defensively the player may elect to fire one or more phasers, that are in arc and range, at incoming seeking weapons. Since seeking weapons are resolved during the individual ship/squadrons attack phase the player may fire or hold back as many phasers as he wishes.

For example.

ADD empty

Phaser-1 4AD and Phaser-1 2AD in arc plus 2 tractors.

Incoming 1 drone, fire one phaser from the 4AD bank, next ship fires 2 drones, fire one from each bank. Third attacker fires 2 drones, fire one from each bank leaving 1AD in the FH bank. Next attacker fires 2 drones, use last phaser and both tractors.

Now defenceless.

Incoming lots of drones :twisted:

Sgt_G. As I see it. With splitting fire you can fire at as many targets as you wish that are in arc OR you can elect not to fire some or all of your weapons in the attack action but cannot fire them later in that turn since attacks must be done during the ships attack action only.

In your case your 6 Disruptors would be a massive overkill, fire one at the target and either fire the other five at another target or don’t fire them. Photons are mentioned because with the reload trait its an entire turn to get them back so a fed in the same situation could fire one photon and hold the other three to fire next turn. Disruptors fire every turn so don’t care about reloads.

Msprange. It’s not our fault, we come from SFB. Where are the other 300 pages of rules. It cannot be this simple, what about the addendum, the 200 pages of exceptions. Several pages for every single weapon. Where are the 4 digit reference numbers for every paragraph so you can refer to the 6 different ways that a weapon or system works.
:roll: :wink:

 

[Sgt_G]

Sgt_G. As I see it. With splitting fire you can fire at as many targets as you wish that are in arc OR you can elect not to fire some or all of your weapons in the attack action but cannot fire them later in that turn since attacks must be done during the ships attack action only.

For the record, I never said I wanted to be able to hold weapons to fire later in the turn. Obviously, you can't do that (except for phasers and Fed drone/ADD combo racks).

In your case your 6 Disruptors would be a massive overkill, fire one at the target and either fire the other five at another target or don’t fire them. Photons are mentioned because with the reload trait its an entire turn to get them back so a fed in the same situation could fire one photon and hold the other three to fire next turn. Disruptors fire every turn so don’t care about reloads.

That's the way I read it, but someone (was it Iain? I think so) said that it's one single weapons, not a bank of six weapons, and must all fire together. As the rulebook does not definatively state one way or the other, and Iain's reading is based on (IMNSHO) hyper-parsing of one sentence of a rule dealing with something else altogether. That's why I wanted the designer to set the record straight. If I'm wrong in the way I'm reading (into) the rules, so be it.

 

[Captain Jonah]

Nope you didn't, I'm trying to be as clear as a clear thing can be so someone else reading this can see it clearly :lol:

I see them as banks of weapons that share an Arc and therefore share a listing. You fire each weapon or not, you select targets as you want for the weapons you fire. Its SFB reduced down to ACTA not NA converted to SFB.

Still Msprange now has Iain confused as well so we have all been confused by this.


Bring back the 300 Page rulebooks so we can really get confused :lol:

Erm that last was a joke by the way :wink:

 

[MongooseMatt]

Msprange. It’s not our fault, we come from SFB. Where are the other 300 pages of rules. It cannot be this simple, what about the addendum, the 200 pages of exceptions. Several pages for every single weapon. Where are the 4 digit reference numbers for every paragraph so you can refer to the 6 different ways that a weapon or system works.
:roll: :wink:

Heh

When these questions started popping up, I started worrying in case there really _was_ an issue witht he rulebook as a whole, which would be odd, as it is essentially the same rulebook we had for B5 and Noble Armada, and while there have been queries, we've never really had mass confusion.

As I mentioned before, if you are coming from SFB you really need to take the rules at face value and make _no_ asumptions based on SFB. CTA:SF is based on the SFU, it is _not_ a conversion of SFB or FC. It really is that simple

Now I have to deal a thread where someone (and I _know_ they are an SFB player!) is thinking a phaser-g will appear on the Federaiton Battleship

 

[MongooseMatt]

So, what does Matthew say?? Thanks.

Umm, if you really don't want to fire every AD in a turn, I guess I am not going to make you

There is a precedent with Reload weapons already in the rulebook. Just don't try to use any spare AD for another attack or switch them to Defensive Fire - both of those would be a no-no.

 

[MongooseMatt]

As the rulebook does not definatively state one way or the other,

Actually it does, in the Attack Phase chapter (first page). This is something that cropped up in Babylon 5, and we made a change in the text back then.

 

[cylence]

This thread is bringing up one of the several issues my group is having with this game. For players not exposed to ACTA previously, we're finding the rule book highly disorganized and ambiguous. This "simple", read-as-is philosophy just doesn't seem to work the way the book is written. We're being told things are being read into too much and should be treated exactly as written, but the same topics are coming up here over and over again, so something isn't working as intended.

There shouldn't be any "basic" vs "advanced" rules - you need all of them to play the game. Yet one one page defines something one way, and another page completely changes it without explicitly stating that it overrules the other, and the previous definition doesn't apply to the game (such as splitting attack dice). Terminology is used throughout the book without ever being definitively defined (like "weapons system"). You have to look at five different chapters just to work out an attack: introduction (firing arcs), attack phase, special actions, special traits, advanced rules; and the lack of an index means you're fishing through the pages trying to find that one sentence that is relevant. We've all been playing complex games for at least 15 years each, some of us for nearly double that, and in the several years we've been playing together, this is the first game we've had so many issues trying to make sense of it. Not a good start for what is supposedly such a simple game.

 

[Da Boss]

Basic vs Advanced

Most of these rules are not needed to play ACTA:SF - the following can be ignored in pick up games with no real effect:

Variant Crew Quality
Labs
Multiplayer Games
Plasma Fire modes
Splitting fire
Squadrons
Transporters

Cloaking can be ignored if not using Romulans

I do sympathise that it is likely quite a change of style for those used to a more comprehensive defined and explained system.

 

[Greg Smith]

Going back to the original issue, with Federation ADD, how does it work if the Anti-drone rating is reduced, but not exhausted?

Matt does this new ADD rating carry on from turn to turn? Does it affect the AD of the drone rack?

 

[Sgt_G]

It seems pretty clear to me. If a ship has "Anti-Drone 2", it drops to "Anti-drone 1" if it rolls any "1" in defense.

Likewise, it seems to me that a Fed ship like the DWD with 4 AD of drones drops to 3 AD of drones for the rest of the game if it rolls a "1" in defense mode.

New question: Can a ship use Anti-drones against multiple salvos in the same turn? Phasers, obviously, can only fire once per turn. Same with tractors. But I see no such limit on Anti-drones.

 

[GalagaGalaxian]

I think ADDs can be used as much as you want, as long as you want, until they run out of ammo.

 

[Captain Jonah]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^What the man above said :lol:

From what has been said by the powers that lurk.

Turn 1, your DWD flys out in front of the Fed fleet and blows a great big rasberry at the Kzinti.

Incoming Kzinti drones
Wave one DWD rolls 2,3,5,6. all stopped
Wave 2 rolls 1,3,4,4 all stopped, ammo down by one.
Wave 3 1,4,6,6 all stopped, ammo down by one
Wave 4 2,2,4,5 all stopped
Wave 5 1,1,2,4 all stopped, ammo down by one.
Wave 6 1,3,5,6 all stopped. ammo down by one.

Loud clunk from the depths of the ship as the auto loader tries to load new Drones but the magazine is empty. Fed DWD next turn runs for its life and becomes an Init sink for the rest of the game :lol: