Sector Fleet
- Thread starter Alan Hume
- Start date
Somebody said:
The problem with this is that you then force your own fleet to spend those hours or days to get to jump distance. If it's days then it's your own mobility that is inhibited. I'd keep the main part of the fleet outside the 100 diameter limit with tankers to keep topping up manouver fuel.
Somebody said:
You are missing the point (and today we can simulate a lot of things.. the F-16 simulator used airbags that inflated/deflated rapidly to simulate forces on the pilot). Sims are training. And yes, pushing a button in the sim is the same as pushing the button in real life. But it's still different. You still need to test your equipment by firing a missile, shooting the laser, etc. Even on Star Trek they still verified their targeting sensors and torpedoes by blowing up helpless asteriods.
But more than anything you need to test your entire firing sequence and every piece of gear and person involved. Why does the military still do red alert drills? Wouldn't it be the same if you ran out, jumped in your fighter and said 'Time!'? The pilot already knows how to taxi a plane down a runway, firewall the throttle and get airborne. Why waste the expense of fuel and wear and tear on the plane for the test?
Cause until you do it, until you go through the entire sequence, you can just assume your systems work according to the sim. Sims will never (IMO) replace a real drill. And thus far, they have always been used to augment training and defray the costs of live fire.
A couple of things that haven't been mentioned about why fleets would move and "live-fire" exercises.
Why would fleets move during peacetime, rather than sit at a depot? Two words - Power Projection. The Imperium's member planets need to know that the Imperium is out there keeping watch over them. It doesn't matter that the depot is only a jump away, and can be there in 2 weeks, if the population has never "seen" the fleet, they won't feel protected. So while the bulk of forces at any given time will probably sit at strategic reserve points like Depots, where they can deploy quickly, for the sake of politics and diplomacy, you'll always have task forces traveling about as a show of power.
Why would a 56th century fleet participate in live fire exercises? Mental attitude. All the simulation in the world, no matter how accurate, can't necessarily put you into the same frames of mind that a true crisis does. No matter how realistic the simulation, there is a heart stopping moment in a true crisis where your mind is racing "holy crap, this is it, this is the real thing" and you truly find out if all the training you've done has been ingrained deep enough in you.
While the simulators of the Imperium may be able to perfect the strategy, tactics and targeting skills of their Navy personnel, I'd be hard pressed to beleive that they could accurately simulate the conditions under which a ship will run during a battle, unless the entire ship is wired to be a simulator for things like hul depressurization, fires, etc.
Why would fleets move during peacetime, rather than sit at a depot? Two words - Power Projection. The Imperium's member planets need to know that the Imperium is out there keeping watch over them. It doesn't matter that the depot is only a jump away, and can be there in 2 weeks, if the population has never "seen" the fleet, they won't feel protected. So while the bulk of forces at any given time will probably sit at strategic reserve points like Depots, where they can deploy quickly, for the sake of politics and diplomacy, you'll always have task forces traveling about as a show of power.
Why would a 56th century fleet participate in live fire exercises? Mental attitude. All the simulation in the world, no matter how accurate, can't necessarily put you into the same frames of mind that a true crisis does. No matter how realistic the simulation, there is a heart stopping moment in a true crisis where your mind is racing "holy crap, this is it, this is the real thing" and you truly find out if all the training you've done has been ingrained deep enough in you.
While the simulators of the Imperium may be able to perfect the strategy, tactics and targeting skills of their Navy personnel, I'd be hard pressed to beleive that they could accurately simulate the conditions under which a ship will run during a battle, unless the entire ship is wired to be a simulator for things like hul depressurization, fires, etc.
Even though the Imperium might be a thinly disguised dictatorship, they can't control the news enough to prevent word from getting out that capital ships haven't been seen in a large number of systems in decades. Free traders, passengers, etc, will all carry that news. In order to maintain power, reassure it's member worlds and allies, and appease it's nobles, the Imperium simply must parade it's fleets around - even if the bulk of the population will only see the ships on holovid. Sure, a destroyer or three may swing through a system every 2-3 weeks, but that won't capture the local's attention and make them feel cared for like a task force every couple of years will.
Militarily, not really needed. Politics, Diplomacy and Economics are what would drive those fleets.
A ship may be a 100% artificial environment and quite controllable, but there are still subtleties that a true crisis presents that a human will pick up on. FREX, jump sickness caused by the transition to real space. I seriously doubt even the super sophisticated computers and systems of the Imperium could duplicate that effect on their crewmen reliably. Which means at a minimum, taking those ships into j-space so that a simulation can be run at the moment they drop out.
More reasons for live-fire exercises - ammo sampling, equipment reliability testing and data collection.
If you never fire off any of your ammo, you don't know for a fact that it all works. If a saboteur comes through and scrambles the proximity fuse programming for your missiles or a large portion of the warheads have experienced undectable damage from a radiation event, you may only discover it when you fire the missiles for real. Most militaries would rather catch that type of problem during a live fire exercise than find out during hostilities.
Anything with moving parts needs to be tested under stress periodically. A live fire exercise is a good way to make sure your mechnical parts for your sandcasters and missile launchers are all working.
Live fire exercises also provide provide opportunities to collect the data with which the simulations are programmed.
Point is, that even with superior simulations covering most training, there are still enough valid reasons that can be combined together to justify live fire exercises.
Militarily, not really needed. Politics, Diplomacy and Economics are what would drive those fleets.
A ship may be a 100% artificial environment and quite controllable, but there are still subtleties that a true crisis presents that a human will pick up on. FREX, jump sickness caused by the transition to real space. I seriously doubt even the super sophisticated computers and systems of the Imperium could duplicate that effect on their crewmen reliably. Which means at a minimum, taking those ships into j-space so that a simulation can be run at the moment they drop out.
More reasons for live-fire exercises - ammo sampling, equipment reliability testing and data collection.
If you never fire off any of your ammo, you don't know for a fact that it all works. If a saboteur comes through and scrambles the proximity fuse programming for your missiles or a large portion of the warheads have experienced undectable damage from a radiation event, you may only discover it when you fire the missiles for real. Most militaries would rather catch that type of problem during a live fire exercise than find out during hostilities.
Anything with moving parts needs to be tested under stress periodically. A live fire exercise is a good way to make sure your mechnical parts for your sandcasters and missile launchers are all working.
Live fire exercises also provide provide opportunities to collect the data with which the simulations are programmed.
Point is, that even with superior simulations covering most training, there are still enough valid reasons that can be combined together to justify live fire exercises.
alex_greene
Guest
Assigning crews to routine maintenance tasks and battle readiness drills does more than just keep bored crewmen from getting lazy and unfit, you know. 
alex_greene
Guest
Except that if crewmen were still bored, lazy and unfit the Navy would probably see fit for them to be bored, lazy and unfit with a scrubbing unit in their hands.rust said:Well, you know, after all those maneuvers we were still bored, lazy andalex_greene said:Assigning crews to routine maintenance tasks and battle readiness drills does more than just keep bored crewmen from getting lazy and unfit, you know.
unfit ...
Those atmo processors, sewage sumps, hydroponic waste extraction units, broken grav plate centrifuges lined with gunk and kilometres of air conditioning vents won't clean themselves.
And officers are renowned for thinking of ingenious ways to make sure that crewmen, non coms and Es never get a moment's peace to consider themselves bored ...
It's supposed to. But do you know how many times I saw the paperwork all properly filled out, but the job still not done? More times than I care to count.alex_greene said:Assigning crews to routine maintenance tasks and battle readiness drills does more than just keep bored crewmen from getting lazy and unfit, you know.
Former ET1 (E-6), USN.
The 'Showing the Flag' references makes me think of the Great White Fleet under Roosevelt. Sending our battlefleet around the world really made an impression on a lot of folks!
There was also a Traveller adventure, I don't recall where I read it, but talked about an Imperial battle squadron in orbit around a world that had finished a short nuclear war. The centerpiece of the fleet was a 1million DT battleship, along with a few cruisers and auxillaries. The BB was overkill, but it was also sent there to 'convince' the planetary nations that their little war was nothing compared to the power of the Imperium. Anybody else remember that scenario or where it came from?
There was also a Traveller adventure, I don't recall where I read it, but talked about an Imperial battle squadron in orbit around a world that had finished a short nuclear war. The centerpiece of the fleet was a 1million DT battleship, along with a few cruisers and auxillaries. The BB was overkill, but it was also sent there to 'convince' the planetary nations that their little war was nothing compared to the power of the Imperium. Anybody else remember that scenario or where it came from?
alex_greene
Guest
kristof65 said:It's supposed to. But do you know how many times I saw the paperwork all properly filled out, but the job still not done? More times than I care to count.alex_greene said:Assigning crews to routine maintenance tasks and battle readiness drills does more than just keep bored crewmen from getting lazy and unfit, you know.
Former ET1 (E-6), USN.
Even in the Grand Fleet, you'll always have paperwork. "Et in Arcadia, Ego."
IanBruntlett
Emperor Mongoose
I've finished reading Sector Fleet. While it will be useful for my Spinward Marches campaigns, I have two further things to add:-
1. The contents page "Chapter 2" and "Chapter 6" aren't clearly emphasised.
2. There is no index.
Apart from that, everything is OK by me.
1. The contents page "Chapter 2" and "Chapter 6" aren't clearly emphasised.
2. There is no index.
Apart from that, everything is OK by me.
Liam Devlin
Mongoose
Definitely a keeper! The work covers for a lot of gamers with no military background at all the workings of the largest most prestigious branch of the 3rd Imperium from the Emperor down to the task force or Flotilla commanding officer.
:arrow: Hidden gems inside include the political workings and goings on, the competing strategies in the Spinward Marches (for those with a Diletantte-Noble campaign).
:arrow: Brief glimpses are given to rival Navies, like the K'Kree, Hivers, Solomani Confederation, Droyne, Aslan, Vargr, and the Zhodani for juxtapositioning how these Navies operate to the Imperial Navy.
:arrow: A useful breakdown of classifications of vessels, and how squadrons, task forces, flotillas, special Fleets, Sector Fleets and Domain Fleets are put together.
:arrow: More gems for the Marches, like how fast each subsector can roll call in reservists and get mothballed ships (if any) into the fray. Good preparatory book for Mongoose's version of the 5Th Frontier War.
Oh, and plenty of good Bryan Gibson artwork to keep the gray-pages from becoming dull!
I recommended this on DTRPG.com at 5 Stars, and to several of my Traveller associates (past & present) who have never been in the military, and pointed out this would be a good read for them as GMs, and the "hidden" aspects of several who had hinted at a Nobles campaign set in the Marches...
YMMV, as I can see from the divergence in this thread.
:arrow: Hidden gems inside include the political workings and goings on, the competing strategies in the Spinward Marches (for those with a Diletantte-Noble campaign).
:arrow: Brief glimpses are given to rival Navies, like the K'Kree, Hivers, Solomani Confederation, Droyne, Aslan, Vargr, and the Zhodani for juxtapositioning how these Navies operate to the Imperial Navy.
:arrow: A useful breakdown of classifications of vessels, and how squadrons, task forces, flotillas, special Fleets, Sector Fleets and Domain Fleets are put together.
:arrow: More gems for the Marches, like how fast each subsector can roll call in reservists and get mothballed ships (if any) into the fray. Good preparatory book for Mongoose's version of the 5Th Frontier War.
Oh, and plenty of good Bryan Gibson artwork to keep the gray-pages from becoming dull!
I recommended this on DTRPG.com at 5 Stars, and to several of my Traveller associates (past & present) who have never been in the military, and pointed out this would be a good read for them as GMs, and the "hidden" aspects of several who had hinted at a Nobles campaign set in the Marches...
YMMV, as I can see from the divergence in this thread.
