Scholars and Sleight of Hand

[urdinaran]

I was toying around making a Stygian Scholar NPC when I came across this problem:

Its says in the main book that "most" Scholars start of with the Prestidigitation style. In fact, you have to in order to be in the Black Ring, as I wanted my NPC to be.

Problem:

You need 4 ranks in Sleight of Hand in order to know the basic spell "Conjuring". Sleight of Hand is a cross-class skill for scholars, which means they won't get the 4 ranks till 5th level.
The only way to do it is to take 1 level of thief first, in order to take 4 ranks in Sleight of Hand. Kinda dumb huh? I mean, do most scholars become thieves first?

 

[VincentDarlage]

Check out page 80 of the Conan rules.

"Bonus skill points from a high Intelligence may be spent on any skill without penalty. In effect, all skills are treated as class skills for the various skill points gained through having a high intelligence."

Thus, if your scholar has an intelligence of 12 or higher, you can get the necessary ranks easily.

 

[Bombaatu]

One thing still bothers me about the class-skill/crossclass-skill issue.

I love that bonus skill points can be spent freely on any skill (treating it as a class skill), whereas points gained from your class can only be spent freely on the appropriate class skills, with all others having their cost doubled.

However, the max ranks cap is a bit screwy to figure out with the above. If you've spend bonus points on a skill, can it be assumed that this is now a "class skill" for the purposes of max ranks? What if class-based skill points are spent on said skill when they gain the next level (not that anyone in their right mind *would*, but that's another story) - does the max rank cap now get refigured as a cross-class skill? Of course, the same issue arrises with any D20 game and multi-classing, but it's doubly-confusing when you also have to keep track of where the skill points came from.

My suggestion would be to have only one rank cap: Level +3. The increased rank cost for "cross-class" point expenditures is more than enough of a balancer. IMO, two different rank caps just overcomplicates it unnecessarily.

 

[Yokiboy]

However, the max ranks cap is a bit screwy to figure out with the above. If you've spend bonus points on a skill, can it be assumed that this is now a "class skill" for the purposes of max ranks?

I think this was already answered in another thread, and the answer is no. You only pay 1 skill point per rank, but it is still treated as a Cross Class Skill.

TTFN,

Yokiboy

 

[Iron_Chef]

However, the max ranks cap is a bit screwy to figure out with the above. If you've spend bonus points on a skill, can it be assumed that this is now a "class skill" for the purposes of max ranks?

I think this was already answered in another thread, and the answer is no. You only pay 1 skill point per rank, but it is still treated as a Cross Class Skill.

TTFN,

Yokiboy

So how are you supposed to get the ranks you need in Sleight of Hand as a level 1 Scholar?

 

[Yokiboy]

So how are you supposed to get the ranks you need in Sleight of Hand as a level 1 Scholar?

You won't unless you treat it as a Class Skill.

TTFN,

Yokiboy

 

[BhilJhoanz]

It would seem to me that entry into Scholarly path isn't something that one would take up, unexperienced, in the youth of your life. Being a scholar (a sorcerous scholar at least) is either something that is thrust upon you or that you discover through your adventures. Remember, this isn't D&D with wizard's school on every corner. Those who hold the keys to otherworldly secrets should be hesitant to release them and certainly not to an inexperienced stranger!

With this in mind, coming up with sufficient ranks as a 1st level character shouldn't even be a concern. Instead, work with your GM to direct the plot so your Noble or thief or Nomad can stumble upon these mysteries at higher levels where higher CC ranks are available.

 

[Iron_Chef]

This in violation of the suggested paths for scholars of the Black Ring given in the GM's section of Conan, isn't it?

 

[Anonymous]

You can, as suggested above, use points from a + intelligence modifier (bonus INT pts if you will) to increase you scholar's SOH skill to the required pre-reqs.

Yes, it can be a bit confusing, if you sih, house rule that all skills have a cap of level +3; the double skill pts are enough of a deterrant.

If you wish to stick with the rules, then non-class skills are treated as skills skills for the purpose ofbonus INT pts only; thus if you are spending normal skillpoints on a CC skil, EVEN IF you already spent bonus INT pts on it, you will not only have to spend 2wice the sp, but you will not be able to raise it unless it is less than half your class skill total (i.e. you treat it as a CC skill in ALL regards, even if you raised it with bonus INT pts.)

 

[Anonymous]

Or better yet, simply give the poor Scholars SoH as a class skill as per the Skill Table. Sheesh! From the amount of people who refuse to do it, you would think it will allow them to conquer the world.

It's just Sleight of Hands folks. It's not like every Scholar is going to turn to thievery to make a living, you know?

 

[Yokiboy]

It's just Sleight of Hands folks. It's not like every Scholar is going to turn to thievery to make a living, you know?

LOL! So true. :lol:

TTFN,

Yokiboy

 

[GhostWolf69]

I'd say the best way to solve this is to use some sleight of hand... just change the rank score when the DM is distracted elsewhere.

Sorry... I couldn't resist.

/wolf

 

[urdinaran]

No no no...
It was answered on the 1st reply, oh and thank you for enlightening me.

A Scholar with a 15 Int gets (8+2)x4 skill points at 1st level, for a total of 40. 8 of these are 'Bonus' skill points due to high Int. Therefore you only need 4 of these to meet the requirements for the conjuring spell. So, as long as your scholar has a min 12 Int, you can do this.

 

[Iron_Chef]

No no no...
It was answered on the 1st reply, oh and thank you for enlightening me.

A Scholar with a 15 Int gets (8+2)x4 skill points at 1st level, for a total of 40. 8 of these are 'Bonus' skill points due to high Int. Therefore you only need 4 of these to meet the requirements for the conjuring spell. So, as long as your scholar has a min 12 Int, you can do this.

But you can't have 4 ranks in a cross-class skill at 1st level. You can use 2 of your bonus Int points to buy 2 ranks only, or spend 4 regular skill points to get 2 ranks.

 

[VincentDarlage]

If it is treated as a class skill, then it is treated as a class skill, including max ranks. It takes care of that particular problem pretty simply.

 

[Yokiboy]

If it is treated as a class skill, then it is treated as a class skill, including max ranks. It takes care of that particular problem pretty simply.

Is this really the official ruling? That makes tracking levels in cross-class skills very difficult, as you can put both bonus skill points and cross-class skill points into a skill. How are you meant to track that properly? :?

TTFN,

Yokiboy

 

[VincentDarlage]

I haven't found it difficult to track.

 

[Iron_Chef]

I haven't found it difficult to track.

That's great, but the rest of us are gaming-impaired, apparently. :?

Are you saying that Int-based bonus skill points can be spent on cross-class skills as if they were class skills, including class skill ranks? I am not clear on this.

 

[VincentDarlage]

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. The rule is quite clear.

"Bonus skill points from a high intelligence may be spent on any skill without penalty. In effect all skills are treated as class skills for the various skill points gained through having a high intelligence."

Then the text gives an example, allowing Conan to spend his Intelligence bonus skill points at 1st level on 4 ranks of Gather Information, which is not a Barbarian class skill.

The rule is crystal clear, and the example backs up the rule exactly.

Thus, any Stygian with a 12 or higher Intelligence can easily take four ranks of Sleight of Hand at 1st level.

Keep in mind that the prerequisites were designed with that rule in force. If you change the rule on bonus skill points, then you should also change the Sleight of Hand prerequisite.

 

[Yokiboy]

The rule is crystal clear, and the example backs up the rule exactly.

I missed the example in checking this rule again, thanks Vincent. I still think it sounds like it could get confusing; say Conan wants to put some cross-class skill points into Gather Information after levelling, he won't be allowed to do so until level 4, due to the Max Ranks rule. - Okay, that wasn't so damn hard I guess, but a tad annoying. :lol:

TTFN,

Yokiboy