RuneQuest with the Middle-earth/Lord of the Rings setting

[Cleombrotus]

There are many examples of the magic of ME that MERP explained very well. For example Legolas walking on the top of the snow without breaking it. Rolemaster/Merp provided the open spell list Moving Ways as one means to acquire a spell that could well explain Elven grace of movement.
Although in game terms we may say "I'll cast limbrunning", I would describe it as a natural ability for the Elf character to leap gracefully through the limbs of the tree.
Similarly the abilities of Rangers to track unerringly and start fires in the rain, etc, are explained magically through spell lists. In Middle Earth such things are not mere skills but represent ties to Arda and traditions/racial memory that date back millenia. I think that a set of discreet spells with individual effects is just too crass to capture the subtleties and pervasiveness of Middle Earth magic. So I stand by my case wholeheartedly.

 

[The King]

...
So I stand by my case wholeheartedly.

It seems you played MERP a long time and enjoyed it so we can't agree on these points.
Anyway there is no chance MERP ever comes again as a 3rd edition (I think Tolkien Enterprise wasn't much pleased with their works when they revoked the licence) and Decipher announced they didn't renew it. So the licence is available again.
I don't believe D20 rules could better fit to this setting and as it seems Mongoose doesn't create new game system, it leaves us with the Runequest rules. In the end, I prefer this to nothing at all.

 

[Aragorn300]

For spells we could actually use something simular to the one Decipher used; Casting spells leads to fatigues, exhaustion, etc.
This could be used in any system; All have some form of fatigue.
And the spell list in the Decipher Core were all spells used in tolkien's books and the movies.

Decipher's Lotr had some mechanics simular to Traveller which might make an interesting system as well.

 

[The King]

Decipher's Lotr had some mechanics simular to Traveller which might make an interesting system as well.

Yes, but I doubt the CODA system will be chosen if there is a new Middle-Earth RPG because the licence is already expensive and Mongoose would then have to purchase another licence for the system.

 

[The King]

Getting back to the primary topic: most fights described in Lord of the rings are similar to what M. Moorcock wrote in his Elric saga. And you all knwo well that Elric run very well under the Runequest system (even if it's a modified one).
So again, I think it is more than possible to design a Middle-Earth game with those rules while still offering the specific ambience.

 

[danskmacabre]

Middle Earth is absolutely stacked full of magic. Most of it is hidden in things that appear to be natural abilities. this was why merp was so good for middle earth, as there were loads of references to things that were magical, and spell lists gave a multitude of minor spell effects that were very middle earth.
There were plenty of spell using classes that had spells not involving firebolts and the like.

Well, before we continue this conversation it is important what age we are talking about.
If you mean 1st, 2nd age, yeah ok, lotsa magic (for certain races anyway).

However, if you're referring to the 3rd age, around the war of the ring I.E. Frodo, Argorn and all the rest.
Well, not really, OK you have the Wizards, not many of them though and they should certainly not be available to player characters as a playable "race".

IIRC Mages are available to players as a class in MERP, I.E. fireballs, other elemental spells etc, yet even Gandalf hardly ever did that, and when he did it was via Narja the fire ring I believe.
Yet the mage was available as a standard class in MERP.

Clerics, other healing type classes. These classes in Merp (Rolemaster) have really powerful healing spells, and they'e not that high level, far above what should be avialable. Raising the dead, re-attaching limbs, all sorts of stuff.

Rangers, yeah ok, they are ok for specific cultural groups in MERP. Fair enough.

Then there's mentalists etc, which I figure are ok to a degree with say Elves, who even in the 3rd are clearly superior to humans etc.

A lot of magic in Middle Earth comes from Artifact level magic items made in ages past that noone alive could reconstruct anymore, (Palantir, the various rings etc). These are exceptions rather than rules and again, should not be available to Player characters.

I grant that Alchemy is potentially pretty powerful to make magic items of mid/lowish power in the 3rd age (Dwarves, Elves) , but it's stated several times in LOTR that certain magical technologies will never be recaptured, although apparently mining/construction techniques were improved somewhat (from the words of Gimli).

All in all, whilst magic WAS present, by and large, many of the classes available to players were inappropriate in MERP and did not reflect the level of magic in middle Earth.
Magic in Middle Earth in that age at least WAS subtle and rare and should have been portrayed as such in game.
So, whilst SOME of the spells in MERP could be justified (already pointed out in previous posts) , many were very inappropriate.

After saying all that, I have played/Run MERP in the past many times and I enjoyed it nevertheless.
If you cut out the MAGE completely for players, reduce magic available in game dramatically for healing, change some of it to say Herbs etc.
Restrict certain classes to specific races (generally the caster classes), then it can work ok, if DM'd right.
But as a product out of the box, well, no, not if you want to run a campaign that feels like Middle Earth.

 

[Cleombrotus]

Well, before we continue this conversation it is important what age we are talking about.
If you mean 1st, 2nd age, yeah ok, lotsa magic (for certain races anyway).

Third Age, most certainly. Even though the ages have a very distinct character of their own, it's worth bearing in mind that the Third Age lasts for just over three thousand years. There's plenty of magic for a good two thousand of that, amongst both Elves and Men, only falling into decline with the fall of Arthedain (T.A. 1974) and the death of the Gondorian King (T.A. 2050). So to talk of Middle Earth in terms of Ages is not to tell the whole story. ICE set most of their campaign material at the height of Gondorian imperial power, not during the long decline, although the Kin Strife and the Great Plague had taken their toll and set the wheels in motion.
The exact year of the Third Age in which you set a game is the most important consideration you can make for a Middle Earth campaign. What Kingdoms exist? Where is Sauron? Is Khazad-Dum still occupied by Durin's folk? Where are the Hobbits? Any one of these factors can change entire swathes of Middle Earth in both physical and cultural character. "Races" come and go throughout the Third Age and whilst Magic is certainly on the decline, it is still there in almost every aspect of Middle Earth, vestiges of the Song of Arda.

I agree with you about Mages as player characters. I hardly ever use pure spell users - I think that Animists, Mentalists, Seers and Mystics are about the only professions I would ever allow for player characters in my games, but for accurate representations of certain NPCs I think the system is hard to beat.

Whilst Mongoose seem to have the ability to produce a large quantity of work, it would take something on the scale of Conan to even remotely tempt me away from MERP, and if we can't persuade them to produce decent maps for Glorantha, Lankhmar or The Young Kingdoms, then how are they ever going to produce maps worthy of Middle Earth, unless they get the rights to use Pete Fenlon's incredible Middle Earth Maps?

 

[danskmacabre]

Third Age, most certainly. Even though the ages have a very distinct character of their own, it's worth bearing in mind that the Third Age lasts for just over three thousand years. There's plenty of magic for a good two thousand of that, amongst both Elves and Men, only falling into decline with the fall of Arthedain (T.A. 1974) and the death of the Gondorian King (T.A. 2050). So to talk of Middle Earth in terms of Ages is not to tell the whole story. ICE set most of their campaign material at the height of Gondorian imperial power, not during the long decline, although the Kin Strife and the Great Plague had taken their toll and set the wheels in motion.
The exact year of the Third Age in which you set a game is the most important consideration you can make for a Middle Earth campaign. What Kingdoms exist? Where is Sauron? Is Khazad-Dum still occupied by Durin's folk? Where are the Hobbits? Any one of these factors can change entire swathes of Middle Earth in both physical and cultural character. "Races" come and go throughout the Third Age and whilst Magic is certainly on the decline, it is still there in almost every aspect of Middle Earth, vestiges of the Song of Arda.

Well I did also qualify that (being what PART of the third age, I appreciate it was a large range of years) by stating around the time of the war of the ring as follows:

However, if you're referring to the 3rd age, around the war of the ring I.E. Frodo, Argorn and all the rest.

That pretty much pinpoints which period in the 3rd age I was getting at.
A time when Elves are nowhere near as powerful as they used to be, many are leaving or have already left anyway.
The power of Gondor has Waned, well you know what I'm getting at.

Regarding what period of the third age the sourcebooks were set in.
It's been a long time since I read them much, but I thought there was a guide in each of them, telling you how each of the books are scaled, depending on which period you are running your campaign in.

but for accurate representations of certain NPCs I think the system is hard to beat.

Yes the maps, sourcebooks were generally pretty good, however as a system presented to player characters, it was way overpowered and out of character for the world.
It was as if DnD characters were teleported from say Forgotten realms and plopped in Middle Earth.
Sure, a DM could change a lot of the game, ban character classes, ban/change spells etc. But since MERP was MADE for Middle Earth, it shouldn't have been necessary.

It sounds like I don't like RM/MERP from all I've been saying, but actually, I LOVE MERP/Rolemaster, I think it's downfall is it was never computerised, it would have been the perfect system to be converted to a computer program.
People's tastes have changed over the years and they don't want a complex game like RM, although I love it, it's hard to get people to play it.

Whilst Mongoose seem to have the ability to produce a large quantity of work, it would take something on the scale of Conan to even remotely tempt me away from MERP, and if we can't persuade them to produce decent maps for Glorantha, Lankhmar or The Young Kingdoms, then how are they ever going to produce maps worthy of Middle Earth, unless they get the rights to use Pete Fenlon's incredible Middle Earth Maps?

I can only agree with this, as things stand with the quality of maps from Mongoose.


but as to using the Runequest core system, sure why not? I think it is a suitable system to use as a core templete, yes you'd have to generate the races, spells etc for it, but so what?
The bare system the way combat, skills, character gen etc work is fine.


Damn, all this talk of Middle Earth, MERP makes we want to get out my old Middle Earth Material and RM books and play....I haven't played an RPG in Middle Earth for years.

 

[Cleombrotus]

So if a common human, say a Gondorian citizen, in the year T.A. 2940 had basic human stats of STR 3d6, CON 3d6, SIZ 2d6+6, INT 3d6, POW 3d6, DEX 3d6, CHA 3d6.

What would you give a Sindar Elf, and what would you give a Lesser Dunedain, as a matter of interest?

I think that it's areas like this where RQ would fall down. Tolkien was pretty much a believer in the notion of racial purity and the idea that diluting bloodlines diluted the strength of a particular race*, most notably the Numenoreans.

I think you would end up with races with Stats like 2d6+12 and the like. Nothing inherently wrong with that, but it sets the old alarm bells ringing
on the powergaming front.

*although before I get in hot water it should be noted that racism in Middle Earth was really a feature of the Black Numenoreans and those Gondorian Dunedain who became the Corsairs of Umbar.

 

[danskmacabre]

So if a common human, say a Gondorian citizen, in the year T.A. 2940 had basic human stats of STR 3d6, CON 3d6, SIZ 2d6+6, INT 3d6, POW 3d6, DEX 3d6, CHA 3d6.

I would suggest that some aspects of the character gen, such as races be altered in RQ to accommodate Middle Earth.
The Elric game is a good example of that happening (I.E. aspects of the system being changed to accommodate a setting).

It doesn't have to be EXACTLY the same as RQ, but the same core system could be used.

As to what specific bonuses etc should be attributed to races, well I can't just pull numbers out of my head like that. But then I'm not the one trying to convert RQ to a Middle Earth friendly system (yet ) .

However Elves are clearly superior to Normal humans, and Numenoreans are clearly superior to Normal humans as well, but not as much as Elves are. and not ALL Elves are Equal as well, etc, etc.
Whereas most FRPGs try to balance out character relative power, I don't believe a ME RPG should/would work like that. All races are simply not equal in ME.
The Elric RPG is an example where all character races are not equal, at least not Stat-wise anyway).
Some races ARE more powerful than others, although there are other non-stat elements to races that can cause advantages/Disadvantages as well of course.

As to Powergaming, well that's up to the GM to balance out and hopefully Players who are more interested in ROLEplaying than POWERgaming.

After saying that if an entire RPG group enjoys powergaming, well good luck to them, whatever floats your boat really.
If one player is being troublesome, then it's up to the group to sort him/her out.

 

[Cleombrotus]

As to what specific bonuses etc should be attributed to races, well I can't just pull numbers out of my head like that. But then I'm not the one trying to convert RQ to a Middle Earth friendly system (yet ) .

Me neither, on both counts. Still, it makes for a good subject to ponder.

 

[danskmacabre]

As to what specific bonuses etc should be attributed to races, well I can't just pull numbers out of my head like that. But then I'm not the one trying to convert RQ to a Middle Earth friendly system (yet ) .

Me neither, on both counts. Still, it makes for a good subject to ponder.

Yeah it does, Still, it probably won't happen anyway, which is a shame.

It's funny how there isn't a current RPG for LOTR, when in many ways it has such a major influence on Fantasy RPGs in general.

 

[GbajiTheDeceiver]

Handling stats is interesting - I'd lean towards keeping the same stats for Elves but adjusting the maximums. You can be a power gamer, but you've got to work for it.

However, and I know this is different for everybody, but for me ME would be much better suited to and served by a more abstract system than RQ.

 

[Cleombrotus]

this was a strength of the MERP system. Race Bonuses. All Elves are superior by virtue of their race, despite all characters rolling stats on d100. race bonus creates the absolute within the world, stat creates the variety within the race.

 

[The King]

To those who doubt about Middle-Earth being adapted to MRQ, I noticed someone intended to do the same but with Chaosium's BRPG:
http://basicroleplaying.com/forum/basic-roleplaying/908-middle-earth-basic-roleplaying-preview.html

Thus we'll see what's going well and where the problems appear.

 

[Cleombrotus]

Certainly can't fault the appearence, artwork and layout. Maybe I'm ready to be convinced. It's amazing how good artwork can inspire the cynical...

 

[The King]

Indeed and I believe Mongoose would then feel complied to commission excellent drawers even for interior art (not that it is that bad, but I noticed that interior art was often unbalanced to stay polite).

 

[The King]

I believe that legendary abilities and racial bonus on skills can easily make up for the difference between the races.

 

[galinor]

I used to play MERP and I can tell you that it wasn't much like tokien. I think an RQ version that was adapted for thew setting would work fine.

 

[The King]

I used to play MERP and I can tell you that it wasn't much like tokien. I think an RQ version that was adapted for thew setting would work fine.

I think that too.
If MRQ is working fine for Slaine (where magic has quite limited effect) Middle-Earth can only be a success.