Runequest What were you thinking

[Vadrus]

I don't think anyone minds paying for their games. It is the feeling, right or wrong, that one is being milked for more money than is necessary, that irks some people. And some of the decisions Mongoose has made (last minute price change, a 25$ core rulebook and a $25 96 page companion many see as a necessary part of the rules) give that impression, rightly or wrongly.

Especially when you can get 'complete' (i.e. rules and background) for many games for less than this. A prime example is the Cadwallon RPG that arrived in the mail today, 300+ full colour pages with illustrations and photos on every page for less than the MRQ core and companion.


Vadrus

(That takes my RPG collection to 323 seperate systems :shock: I need to get out more )

MRQ + Companion = $49.90 full RRP.

Cadwallon = $60 full RRP.

I can get Mongoose Books on discount, so thats an unfair comparison.

Anyway its a different Kettle of fish really, Cadwallon is a 'lost leader' as its designed so you spend loads of cash on Miniatures.

Also, there is a Companion on the way for Cadwallon, plus you need the floorplans, etc, etc . . . . . .

Ah, my bad on the price conversions, I got lost between, Sterling, Dollars and Euro's.

However,

Cadwallon + screen = £40.00
MRQ + Companion + screen = £40.00

So for the package there is no price difference except with one I have 3 magic systems, a detailed setting, an extra 100 pages, with all pages throughout in colour with much better and imaginative art.

Sorry, out of all my collection the presentation and production values of MRQ put it firmly in the bottom 50% at present.


Vadrus

(edited for spelling as always)

 

[Lieutenant Rasczak]

But they have released Cadwallon to further the miniature sales, if it wasn't setup as a lost leader/promotional tool it would have cost you a lot more.

 

[Rurik]

With regards to the Companion & pricing, a good chunk of the price of any book is the printing (especially in Hardback) no Mongoose COULD have happlily put all of the Companion in with the Core rulea - maximizing their profit (only one lot of printing costs) making the book slightly cheaper, but making more profit for themselves in the process.

It is also a market trend, that most (if not all) RPG's are produced in a modular format - I see nothing wrong with it, to be honest its preferable

I think the average customer is more concerned that two books costs himself or herself more than one book would, not that it costs Mongoose more. If they can make more profit and charge me less at the same time, all the power to them.

I don't pretend to know what Mongoose's motives were for choosing two books, but understand why people suspect profit. I have always used the rightly or wrongly disclaimer. But I certainly understand why people feel the way they do.

For example some complain about the large margins (they are a bit excessive), but I don't consider that an attempt to fill more pages as the typface is smaller than many other books. If they wanted to, they could have used smaller margins and slightly larger type and no one would have complained.

 

[mthomason]

It depends somewhat on who your average customer is, though.

For someone who is only a player, the cheap core rulebook works well.
For someone that GMs as well, they have to buy both.

I can imagine that possibly someone decided the sales to players would be the greater of the two and therefore to target the main rulebook as cheaply as possible to them.

 

[SmegmaLord]

All in all....with the companion coming in at 96 pages (only 96..with borders...!!) I can't think of anything other than why is effectively 1 books worth of material being split into 2 books.

For gods sake charge me $40 and give me a 230 page rule book!!!!! Thats what it amounts to.

I appreciate that profit is required, I'm not ignorant of basic business practise, but the companion (whos 96 pages will be padded with borders, pictures, maps, tables, double page examples etc) could/should have been compiled into the first book.

I see no other reason for it not being than to tease with the first and reel you in with the second for another $25!!

Alot of RPG stuff is out there as pdf. I hope Mongoose manage to get people buying 'real' books and being happy, rather than searching out 'virtual' alternatives as their eagerness to part with cash dries up!

CHRIS

 

[Lieutenant Rasczak]

I have to agree that in many cases, the publishers obsessive need to make the books look 'pretty' goes a little far Lol.

With a lot of my Wargames rules, I buy the PDF and edit out all the extraneous borders and artwork. Print it all out and make a Folder.

 

[cjfodel]

and look at WHAT just happened to Guardians of Order, they went under, and for a while they were macking a prifit.

I heve herd that after all the cost that the profit margin in the RPG bisness if about 5 th 10%, and even less on the retail side, no wounder the brick and morter stores are going out of business.

Charles

PS Mongoose I like the Game and have found no flaw with it for me (including the 0ver 100% rule, just ignoring untile legendary is released max skill is 96% {no arguments). Keep up the good work.

 

[Vadrus]

But they have released Cadwallon to further the miniature sales, if it wasn't setup as a lost leader/promotional tool it would have cost you a lot more.

This would be the first instance I've ever heard of of this happening in the RPG market then. Rackham simply aren't a big enough company to do something like that, they must at the very least expect to break even on the books, but I can ask them and find out.

And the two book arguement for cost savings doesn't cut it for MRQ, two sets of start up costs, two print runs, two sets of shipping, storage, etc. It is never cheaper to print two volumes instead of one (unless the one volume would be unfeasibly large - something that can't be leveled at the MRQ rules).


Vadrus

 

[mthomason]

Okay, expanding on the list of possible reasons why the two were split:

- To allow players who did not intend to GM to pick up the core rules at a cheaper price.
- To allow a cheaper core rulebook for the settings that wouldn't have any use for the rules in the companion.
- To force customers into spending more money.

I'm thinking most likely one of the first two, but including the third in an attempt to look at it impartially.

 

[Rurik]

I don not agree that the core rules is analogous to a players handbook. There are many rules in the companion a player will want, such as magic and spell lists. The line between the core rules and companion is not a player/gm only line.

 

[Rurik]

Alot of RPG stuff is out there as pdf. I hope Mongoose manage to get people buying 'real' books and being happy, rather than searching out 'virtual' alternatives as their eagerness to part with cash dries up!

I suspect the profit margin is much higher on PDF's than printed books.

 

[Lieutenant Rasczak]

Okay, expanding on the list of possible reasons why the two were split:

- To allow players who did not intend to GM to pick up the core rules at a cheaper price.
- To allow a cheaper core rulebook for the settings that wouldn't have any use for the rules in the companion.
- To force customers into spending more money.

I'm thinking most likely one of the first two, but including the third in an attempt to look at it impartially.

From the main Mongoose page about the Companion, it looks like it will be of more use to the GM than a player.

The only exception is the expanded chapter on cultural backgrounds and professions. Which might be at the discretion of the GM anyway.

 

[Lieutenant Rasczak]

Alot of RPG stuff is out there as pdf. I hope Mongoose manage to get people buying 'real' books and being happy, rather than searching out 'virtual' alternatives as their eagerness to part with cash dries up!

I suspect the profit margin is much higher on PDF's than printed books.

Not really, especially as generally the PDF is considerably cheaper.

RQ in print - $24.95.

RQ as a PDF - $17.47.

I would imagine the difference would be the cost of printing.

 

[mthomason]

I don not agree that the core rules is analogous to a players handbook. There are many rules in the companion a player will want, such as magic and spell lists. The line between the core rules and companion is not a player/gm only line.

But magic and spell lists tend to be more setting-specific. Some settings don't need them at all, and others are free to include their own.

The core book as it stands tells me how to make a character, how to use skills, and how to fight. It has example spells that give me an idea how they work. If I end up playing a Gloranthan spellcaster, maybe I'll go buy the companion, the Magic of Glorantha book, or both. If I end up playing in Hyboria it is quite likely the spell lists in the companion are useless to me.

 

[Rurik]

RQ in print - $24.95.

RQ as a PDF - $17.47.

I would imagine the difference would be the cost of printing.[/b][/color]

It has been said on this thread that after the cost of printing and the distributions channel the profit margin is 5-10%. So say they make $2.50 per book.

PDF has no printing cost and a much simpler distribution channel (no shipping, wharehouse space, no distributor than retailer). Do you really think Drivethrurpg keeps $15 of a pdf sale? because if they did, Mongoose should just sell the files themselves.

 

[Lieutenant Rasczak]

I don not agree that the core rules is analogous to a players handbook. There are many rules in the companion a player will want, such as magic and spell lists. The line between the core rules and companion is not a player/gm only line.

But magic and spell lists tend to be more setting-specific. Some settings don't need them at all, and others are free to include their own.

The core book as it stands tells me how to make a character, how to use skills, and how to fight. It has example spells that give me an idea how they work. If I end up playing a Gloranthan spellcaster, maybe I'll go buy the companion, the Magic of Glorantha book, or both. If I end up playing in Hyboria it is quite likely the spell lists in the companion are useless to me.

Matt is talking total sense, a modular system is the way to go.

The Core book contains all the basics you need to play, if you want to create your own world you might not need additional character Backgrounds etc.

If that world has low magic, you don't need extra spells.

If they had just done one whopping rulebook, people would have whined and moaned about that too Lol.

Don't forget it wasn't untill RQ 3 that a lot of such information was included. At the time of RQ 3's release lots of people hated it and moaned about it (times never change), but even that was split into two core products. A Players Box and a 'Deluxe' Set.

 

[Lieutenant Rasczak]

RQ in print - $24.95.

RQ as a PDF - $17.47.

I would imagine the difference would be the cost of printing.[/b][/color]

It has been said on this thread that after the cost of printing and the distributions channel the profit margin is 5-10%. So say they make $2.50 per book.

PDF has no printing cost and a much simpler distribution channel (no shipping, wharehouse space, no distributor than retailer). Do you really think Drivethrurpg keeps $15 of a pdf sale? because if they did, Mongoose should just sell the files themselves.

BUT Mongoose still have to cover other costs that they outlayed initially (as mentioned before).

The profit margin for all involved stays the same I have been told.

 

[GoingDown]

Okay, expanding on the list of possible reasons why the two were split

I think it is because of OGL license:

Core Rulebook ~ SDR rules

Just a guess, but it might make sense - core rules will basically match those in SDR?

 

[iamtim]

core rules will basically match those in SDR?

Basically, yes. The SRD does not have all the examples (no big loss) and flowery text -- it's just rules. It is a subset in that it only has one cult and the rules for divine intervention from the Cults chapter, and some of the monsters aren't in it (like Broos, for instance.)

 

[Rurik]

If they had just done one whopping rulebook, people would have whined and moaned about that too Lol.

Don't forget it wasn't untill RQ 3 that a lot of such information was included. At the time of RQ 3's release lots of people hated it and moaned about it (times never change), but even that was split into two core products. A Players Box and a 'Deluxe' Set.

216 pages is hardly one whopping rulebook.

RQ3 had all the character creation rules, combat rules, magic rules, and spells all in the players box. MRQ has additional character creation rules, additional combat rules, additional magic rules and spells in the companion. I just do not see the GM/Player split between the core rules and companion.

And they offered a deluxe box, combining GM and Players box, at a discount over buying them seperately.

We are arguing matters of opinion, so we can go on forever. It is a fact that some people feel like they are being milked (rightly or wrongly disclaimer here). I really havn't even been one of them, but I understand where they are coming from. The Modular argument holds more water with me than the players handbook/dm guide argument because I just don't see it split that way.