Yes. Aside from how it worked in previous editions, that fact is the reason why I think that taking Telepathy first still counts as a check. If it doesn't, the rule is effectively: Take Telepathy and then test for the other talents in the order of your choice. If first choice Telepathy doesn't count as a check, then anyone who doesn't take Telepathy first is just screwing themselves over by making other tests needlessly more difficult and possibly getting no talents at all.
Rules Clarifications: Psionic Initial Training Talent Checks
- Thread starter Yenaldlooshi
- Start date
Yenaldlooshi
Cosmic Mongoose
I am a rules as written kind of guy. I tend to go with rules first to hopefully have balanced mechanics (else why buy the books), then add my flavor and detail on top of those rules.
There is no game mechanic that specifies anything about how different Psionic Institutes handle anything differently from each other or even that the -1 per talent roll attempted has anything to do with how testing is done. This may simply be a game convention to limit characters from being over powered and may have no in-game allegory as it is all abstracted by the rules. My question above is mainly to either get canonical clarification, or if that is not there, a sense of how, if at all, it might imbalance any of the rules mechanics.
Yenaldlooshi
Cosmic Mongoose
I am a logistician when I am a referee, but a rules lawyer when I am a player. In other words, I move the goal posts due to being an evil gamer.
The reading of MgT2e's rules most consistent with historical practice of the game would be:
1) No duplicate checks
2) Telepathy first counts as a check.
As far as balance goes, a Psionic who doesn't go into the Psion career is pretty limited, since what Talents they have will be a Skill 0. Even if your psi does go into a psi career and get some decent skill levels, they are not generally particularly powerful. Nearly all their talents except Teleportation are duplicated by technology quite easily. Telepathy *could* be a problem, but it is really more like Star Trek's Betazoids and Vulcans than Jean Gray. Just talk that out with your player so you are all on the same page.
1) No duplicate checks
2) Telepathy first counts as a check.
As far as balance goes, a Psionic who doesn't go into the Psion career is pretty limited, since what Talents they have will be a Skill 0. Even if your psi does go into a psi career and get some decent skill levels, they are not generally particularly powerful. Nearly all their talents except Teleportation are duplicated by technology quite easily. Telepathy *could* be a problem, but it is really more like Star Trek's Betazoids and Vulcans than Jean Gray. Just talk that out with your player so you are all on the same page.
Limpin Legin
Cosmic Mongoose
Yes, RAW (rules-as-written), would indicate no duplicate checks. The possibility of different Institutes having different training programme structures would be a possible embelishment which is not found in either the Core Rules or Traveller Companion.
RAW, Telepathy does not count as a first check, if it were chosen as first choice. Explainer: Telepathy is automatically selected, and thus bypasses becoming a check, so any check_counter would cease to be incremented on such occasions.
RAW, Telepathy does not count as a first check, if it were chosen as first choice. Explainer: Telepathy is automatically selected, and thus bypasses becoming a check, so any check_counter would cease to be incremented on such occasions.
ottarrus
Emperor Mongoose
I don't fear the unknown in a sci-fi game.
What I want is for every player in the game to have agency, choices, and an effect on the story. That means that fighters get some spotlight, the technicians gets some spotlight, the talky guys get some spotlight, the noble gets some shine, etc. etc.
What I don't want is for someone with Telepathy 6, Telekinesis 4, and Teleport 5 to hijack the game just so their character can be a superhero. And that goes for any game with rare and unique abilities, be that an Imperial noble, a high Charisma Vargr or anything else. The point is that everyone has an opportunity to shine.
Now, if you want to play a game where everyone is a Zhodani Intendant, do your thing. Everybody has Psionics and so the game is back more evenly split depending on skills and roleplay.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
I cheated with Psionics. IMTU, I treat the Psionic Skills like the Science Skill in the Traveller Companion. Telepathy would be the general skill and Life Detection, Mind Link, etc. are the ancillary skills. So, having Telepathy/0 will get you Life Detection and Mind Link at zero as well. From there though, you'd have to put points in Life Detection and Mind Link and the others separately.
This way everyone still gets to shine, even if the rest of the party doesn't have Psionics.
You're free to rule that way, but then why even list Telepathy with a DM+4 if everyone *should* get it automatically and without incurring the -1?
It seems clear to me that RAI (i.e. Rules as Intended) is that taking it for free counts as a check (an automatically successful one, but a check nonetheless).
Limpin Legin
Cosmic Mongoose
Who said about "everyone" being a "Zhodani intendant"? Wasn't me.
Who said anything about any "superhero" with a 6-4-5 skills combo? The OP is about whether a DM should 0 or -1, -1 or -2, -3 or -4 ... difference of 1/12, which is crucial but not devastating in terms of game balance.
If you are referring to anything else relevant to the OP, then that wasn't clear to me.
It is veering off topic, but any skill choices can be game changers. However, the Traveller skill set is too vast for any one individual to be competent in all areas, so you must either work as a team with different PCs with different skill specialisations, or you are forced to play only very niche adventures that require those kind of skills. That would be kind of boring, so the option of balanced teams seems the best for most enjoyment. Besides, if a player does focus in learning only a specialised subset of the available skills, then they will be weaker in other areas, meaning the party will be lacking. If a adventuring party does not have a required skill, then they will have to learn it, or befriend an npc who has it, or resort to brute force, which could kill off all the players, and that too could be boring. So it is always a minimum-maximum question of balance trade-off vs superhero feat ability. I hope that is clearer, even if it is veering of topic.
Limpin Legin
Cosmic Mongoose
I just distinguish between what is player choice and what is resultant rules check (if necessary). Therefore I say *could* rather than *should*. That is, a player *could* receive said talent automatically, or they *could* ignore it. If they ignore it and then change their mind later on, they could also make that *choice*, but it has a more severe penalty of a -4 DM.
Para 2): Well, i've also got a computing background, so I avoid your RAI simply by knowing how flowcharts work. I suppose I cannot expect everyone to have same perspective, so I guess you too would be free to rule that way!
Even if having that kind of talent values actually happened, it would not remotely hijack the game. Psionics are just not that effective in Traveller. If you don't like them, that's fine. But the way the mechanics actually work and the way authors talk about the Zhodani are light years apart.
Even if you had a guy who came out of a psion career with 4-4-4 and a good PSI stat to have points to use those abilities (can't have 5 or 6 without long, long periods of in play training), they are going to have close to nothing for other skills. That 4-4-4 would suck up 10 to 12 of their skill table rolls, of which you get 1-2 per term.
Someone that "powerful" of a psion is pretty weak because literally all they contribute is a couple psi stunts per adventure, because everything costs PSI and you don't have a lot of it.
ottarrus
Emperor Mongoose
Guys I think you're missing my point here.
1. I'm fine with psionics as written.
2. I don't want to give one player an egregious advantage over other players.
3. I like to give every player their chance to shine in a session.
4. The problem with letting someone be an extremely powerful psion is game balance.
5. My 'Intendants' comment was about everyone in the group having psionic powers and therefore balance is maintained.
Letting one be a singularly powerfully psion means that as the ref I have two choices: a] let that character run wild and alienate the rest of the team or b] artificially manage those powers by any one of several means... having the character actively hunted or making psi drugs essentially unavailable for example. And if I do that, then the focus of the campaign is still on this one character to the detriment of the other characters.
Now if the campaign revolves around psionics, then that's fine. That's the story framework and everyone agrees that they want to be part of it.
But if the campaign is a more typical Traveller game, an exploratory one, or a mercenary one, or a 'heist movie', then game balance means that that everyone has their niche and everyone has their turn in the spotlight. And that balance is hard to find when that one character can steal the show at least once a session.
1. I'm fine with psionics as written.
2. I don't want to give one player an egregious advantage over other players.
3. I like to give every player their chance to shine in a session.
4. The problem with letting someone be an extremely powerful psion is game balance.
5. My 'Intendants' comment was about everyone in the group having psionic powers and therefore balance is maintained.
Letting one be a singularly powerfully psion means that as the ref I have two choices: a] let that character run wild and alienate the rest of the team or b] artificially manage those powers by any one of several means... having the character actively hunted or making psi drugs essentially unavailable for example. And if I do that, then the focus of the campaign is still on this one character to the detriment of the other characters.
Now if the campaign revolves around psionics, then that's fine. That's the story framework and everyone agrees that they want to be part of it.
But if the campaign is a more typical Traveller game, an exploratory one, or a mercenary one, or a 'heist movie', then game balance means that that everyone has their niche and everyone has their turn in the spotlight. And that balance is hard to find when that one character can steal the show at least once a session.
I think the responses have meant to be along the lines of:
1) psi is limited, both in frequency, and in opportunity cost of other abilities
2) therefore the psion can only steal the show a limited number of times per session
3) unstated but, all players should probably steal the show multiple times per session
Given the combination of 2 and 3.. what's the problem?
1) psi is limited, both in frequency, and in opportunity cost of other abilities
2) therefore the psion can only steal the show a limited number of times per session
3) unstated but, all players should probably steal the show multiple times per session
Given the combination of 2 and 3.. what's the problem?
An 'extremely powerful psion' in Traveller (gameplay-wise - the fiction might be different) isn't going to do anything wonky to game balance. The high-end stuff is extremely costly and difficult to pull off even if you have sky-high skills, and everything else falls into the "useful but fairly minor toolkit" category.
I've played an "extremely powerful psion" in one game due to freakishly high rolls (PSI 12, telepathy 4, most other things 2-3), and his most-used power was... Inspiration. Second most? Life Sense. He got more mileage out of his Admin 2 (the only other thing that he was good at) than his psionics most of the time.
The few times that he did use the other powers it was in a support role: Telempathy to put someone in a better frame of mind while another PC talks to them, etc. Actually, that's mainly what a psion is good at if they're using their kit effectively: playing support for everyone else.
Playing sole superhero though? Not a chance.
I've played an "extremely powerful psion" in one game due to freakishly high rolls (PSI 12, telepathy 4, most other things 2-3), and his most-used power was... Inspiration. Second most? Life Sense. He got more mileage out of his Admin 2 (the only other thing that he was good at) than his psionics most of the time.
The few times that he did use the other powers it was in a support role: Telempathy to put someone in a better frame of mind while another PC talks to them, etc. Actually, that's mainly what a psion is good at if they're using their kit effectively: playing support for everyone else.
Playing sole superhero though? Not a chance.
I've got a reasonably good psionic character (rolled 1, 1 for an event at University), 9 PSI points, and got extremely lucky in rolling what talents I got. Over 1/2 of what I do is Telepathy and it tends to be Life Detection and Telempathy. Read Surface Thoughts is quite useful and once we had prisoners during a jump so I could use Probe to get info from them. Got nothing. Telekinteic Punch has never done anything, a gun is far better. Clairvoyance is occasionally useful.
Psi powers are useful but they are not game changing. You just don't have enough points.
Still they're fun.
Psi powers are useful but they are not game changing. You just don't have enough points.
Still they're fun.
I'm definitely not sure the distinction between "having a time to shine" and "stealing the show" in this case. Every character, including the psion, should be able to "shine" in any given adventure. But the guy who got a huge Int or Edu stat is more likely to be a threat to smother other characters than a psion, given how rarely you can use psi. Plus, the majority of psi abilities can be duplicated with tech. Sensors, Drones, Weapons, drugs. And if you are in the Imperium where getting witnessed using PSI is hella bad, most of the things that can't be duplicated are extremely hard to use safely.
Psi drugs are helpful in getting an extra 1-2 uses of something interesting, but the OD rules are extremely punitive so that's hardly a big problem.
Honestly, I think that PSI as written is a trap and results in a subpar character in the vast majority of cases.
I'd not take Psionic as a first career again. First term you normally get 6 skills at 0, however, for instance if you choose adept, three of them are psionic talents, so you get only three actual skills.
Personally, for Psi-drugs, I wouldn't make the decrease permanent. The permanent aspect was presumably put there to stop abuse, but it allows abuse in the other direction. For instance, you got a psionic character locked up? Give them Psi drug twice. Do it often enough and they're no longer psionic. Don't worry about making them more powerful because you could give them the inhibitor drug as well.
All those naughty psionic people locked up in Imperial prisons? Just do the above and then release them back into society, they're no longer psionic but probably really really pissed off.
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Personally, I prefer the clarity of the CT psi drug rules. Can only use 1 dose per hour. Overdoses are 3+ doses in 72 hours. Much clearer and more actionable for the players.
And, yes, using psi drugs as a weapon against psionics is generally a dumb abuse of the mechanics. I also don't inflict permanent psi damage, but I make the temporary psi loss more severe. -3 PSI until you've been clean for a month.
I've never had a psionic character that was a problem, for the story or for the other players. So I don't really see the need for super harsh downsides to just being able to do your thing more often.
And, yes, using psi drugs as a weapon against psionics is generally a dumb abuse of the mechanics. I also don't inflict permanent psi damage, but I make the temporary psi loss more severe. -3 PSI until you've been clean for a month.
I've never had a psionic character that was a problem, for the story or for the other players. So I don't really see the need for super harsh downsides to just being able to do your thing more often.
Oh where were the clarity of the rules?
As I mentioned earlier, the MgT2e rules for psi drug abuse states this:
"A Traveller who takes more than one dose of Standard or Double psi-drug, or a single dose of the Special psi-drug must make an END check, with DM-1 per dose of psi-drug taken in the last week."
What does "more than one dose" mean? In a day? In a week? While you still have PSI points from the previous dose? Literally swallow two pills at once?
Classic Traveller's rule, which is in LBB 1, The Traveller Book, and the Starter Book says that the PSI strength bonus lasts 1 hour, you can't take more than one dose in any given hour, and:
"The abuse of psi-drugs can lead to the loss of psionic powers and to physical debilitation. If a character takes three doses in three days, there is a chance (throw 9+) that drug overdose will take place within six hours of the last dose." (Special is an 11+ on any dose).
Mongoose Traveller's OD rule is 'Get sick, take 3D of damage and lose a point of PSI'.
Classic Traveller's is: "If overdose occurs, the character becomes seriously ill, lapsing into unconsciousness and taking hits equal to 3D. Upon recovery from the illness, psionic strength rating is reduced (saving throw 10+) permanently by -1." Which is nice that it spells out that seriously ill includes unconsciousness and the PSI loss isn't automatic (though quite likely).
"A Traveller who takes more than one dose of Standard or Double psi-drug, or a single dose of the Special psi-drug must make an END check, with DM-1 per dose of psi-drug taken in the last week."
What does "more than one dose" mean? In a day? In a week? While you still have PSI points from the previous dose? Literally swallow two pills at once?
Classic Traveller's rule, which is in LBB 1, The Traveller Book, and the Starter Book says that the PSI strength bonus lasts 1 hour, you can't take more than one dose in any given hour, and:
"The abuse of psi-drugs can lead to the loss of psionic powers and to physical debilitation. If a character takes three doses in three days, there is a chance (throw 9+) that drug overdose will take place within six hours of the last dose." (Special is an 11+ on any dose).
Mongoose Traveller's OD rule is 'Get sick, take 3D of damage and lose a point of PSI'.
Classic Traveller's is: "If overdose occurs, the character becomes seriously ill, lapsing into unconsciousness and taking hits equal to 3D. Upon recovery from the illness, psionic strength rating is reduced (saving throw 10+) permanently by -1." Which is nice that it spells out that seriously ill includes unconsciousness and the PSI loss isn't automatic (though quite likely).
