Rules Clarifications: Psionic Initial Training Talent Checks

[Yenaldlooshi]

CoreUpdate22 page 228: "As part of training, the Traveller may attempt to learn any of the common psionic talents on the Psionic Training table by making a PSI check. They may attempt the talents in any order but suffer DM–1 per check attempted."

Question 1: If they fail a check on a given talent, but really want that talent, can they make another check attempt at the -1 described or is this a one shot only attempt and they must move on to the other talents to attempt?

Also, later it states; "If a Traveller chooses Telepathy as their first talent, it will be gained automatically with no need to roll on the Psionic Training table"

Question 2: Since there is no roll, thus no check, does this mean they forgoe the -1 penalty on the next check as long as Telepathy was the first check?

 

[Geir]

(Not an official clarification, just an opinion - I guess I should state that whenever replying to stuff about a book I didn't actually write)

1. Since this only covers initial training, I'm fairly certain the intent is one check per talent, but since you can gain new talents during the career - including the ones you failed to get in this training - see the box on page 229 ( which has no reference to a negative DM for previous tries... so that's odd) - I don't see why you couldn't keep trying with an increasingly bad DM. It's not unbalanced, since the DM keeps getting worse and if you really had your heart set on Awareness... why not - Referee call.

2. Ah, but Telepathy wasn't a check, was it? It was a gimmee. So the rules lawyer in me would give you that and not make the first actual check at DM-1, but the logician in me says, if that were the case, you might as well just say 'Everybody gets Telepathy, and then start rolling'. So again, I think the intent is the first actual check would get a DM-1 if you picked up Telepathy for free.

 

[Saladman]

1. It's a one shot attempt.

2. Read literally it looks like it does escape the -1.

 

[CordwainerFish]

which has no reference to a negative DM for previous tries... so that's odd

One of the pillars of MgT appears to be 'as soon as you retire, you turn into a learning machine'. I sure hope it works out that way for me.

 

[coolAlias]

1. Agree with Saladman for RAW, but also with Geir in that it wouldn't break the game if the referee allows you to keep trying with cumulative -1.

2. Agree with Geir, RAI Telepathy definitely counts as your first roll (which auto-succeeds) for the purpose of the -1 penalties.

3. Furthermore, the psi talents are, in fact, skills, so there's nothing stopping a character from training any they missed out using the usual rules for study periods etc.

 

[Vormaerin]

Telepathy is still a roll, it's just effectively at such a huge bonus you can't fail.

 

[agentwigggles]

Its a a cummulative -1 per attempt at gaining a Psionic Talent. You can decide which order to go for the talents.
EG, you can go for Awareness first then telepathy.
Though if you pick Telepathy first, you gain it automatic.
Each Talent has a further DM when trying to roll for it. Some of then, like Telepathy had a DM+ to acquire them and some have a DM-, such as Teleportion (I think) to acquire them.
You get six rolls.
If you really want one talent, keep on rollin till you get with each roll getting an accomulative -1.

 

[Yenaldlooshi]

Another Zhodani Psionic Question; regarding aging, am I correct that once you age a single term to age 22 your PSI gets a -1 and then -1 for every 4 years after?

I could of sworn I heard that once you get training, you don't have to worry about age reduction but nothing I have found supports that probably faulty memory of mine. Also, I am just not used to worrying about aging until after the 4th term.

Side note: I wonder why none of the Zhodani careers have the Zhodani Talent listed as a skill on its psionic channel.

 

[coolAlias]

Another Zhodani Psionic Question; regarding aging, am I correct that once you age a single term to age 22 your PSI gets a -1 and then -1 for every 4 years after?

I could of sworn I heard that once you get training, you don't have to worry about age reduction but nothing I have found supports that probably faulty memory of mine. Also, I am just not used to worrying about aging until after the 4th term.

Side note: I wonder why none of the Zhodani careers have the Zhodani Talent listed as a skill on its psionic channel.

Per the following, once you gain PSI, it no longer diminishes with age:

Core p228: PSI diminishes over time unless actively used.

 

[agentwigggles]

While not explictly stated, once you have your psi stat revealed, which for Zho would be at birth, you're assumed to be practicing and it doesnt weaken.
The accumulative -1 for your Psi Stat, is for when you find out your ability later in life, past adulthood.

 

[ottarrus]

1. When you're first examined for psionic powers, you have to roll each power. This is how the examiner learns which Talents you should be trained in.
2. ALL Talent acquisition rolls are cumulative, from the very first one all the way into active play. It is entirely possible to be in the middle of a campaign and have a -10 DM to gain a Talent through multiple failures.
3. Zhodani psions are fully trained in the Talents they're naturally adept at by age 18. This means that an new Noble just starting their career will have Talent -0 in all talents they succeeded in rolling during their examination plus however many Background Skills at Skill -0.
4. When I read the rule on p.228 about PSI degrading unless used was very vague. How often is 'actively used'? Therefore, IMTU the Core rule about Psionic Strength diminishing can be halted by a simple regimen of meditation and mental discipline.

 

[Yenaldlooshi]

3. Zhodani psions are fully trained in the Talents they're naturally adept at by age 18. This means that an new Noble just starting their career will have Talent -1 in all talents they succeeded in rolling during their examination plus however many Background Skills at Skill -0.

What I reading states they have those initial Talents at level 0, though. Is that not what you see?

 

[ottarrus]

What I reading states they have those initial Talents at level 0, though. Is that not what you see?

My mistake. I was doing it from memory and must have gotten some Zho-specific information confused. I changed it in my comment.

 

[Gavain]

In my games I play that you have a DM -1 for each talent possessed. That way its clear on the character sheet and I don't have to remember every failed roll!

 

[agentwigggles]

Thats def. a way to do it though. However, raw its accumative -1 per roll, not per failed rolled

 

[Limpin Legin]

Telepathy is still a roll, it's just effectively at such a huge bonus you can't fail.

The Rulebook says it is a choice and states that the consequences of the choice are that you automatically get that choice (if you pick it first).
Other talents would also be choices, but they incur a PSI check roll, to determine if you actually get what you want.
So I don't agree with your statement.

In my games I play that you have a DM -1 for each talent possessed. That way its clear on the character sheet and I don't have to remember every failed roll!

Thats def. a way to do it though. However, raw its accumative -1 per roll, not per failed rolled

That is interesting. I've overlooked that possibility. I just reset the DM count after the four months training is up. So if a player could afford another four months training, then they are entitled to try again.

CoreUpdate22 page 228: "As part of training, the Traveller may attempt to learn any of the common psionic talents on the Psionic Training table by making a PSI check. They may attempt the talents in any order but suffer DM–1 per check attempted."

Question 1: If they fail a check on a given talent, but really want that talent, can they make another check attempt at the -1 described or is this a one shot only attempt and they must move on to the other talents to attempt?

Could depend on the Psionic Institute they train with.
Most "normal" training providers just provide a structured syllabus, scheduled to be completed over a fixed duration. So if you fail any one section, you have either failed the entire course, or you are just left weaker, with no knowledge in the failed area. Other training providers could provide one-to-one tuition, in which case, the student could easily adapt the tuition, and focus on what they consider their priority. So long as they keep paying for it.
Same could apply with Psionics Institutes. There is currently not enough detail about Psionics Institutes in MgT 2e, to have a Chartered Universe answer to that question, and I don't currently own T4 Psionics Institutes, to advise from there either. Of course, in your own homebrew Universe, you could do what you like.

 

[ottarrus]

The whole point of the -1 DM per rolled attempt rule is to keep player characters from being frikkin' Jedi.
One of the legitimate complaints about Star Wars' Buddhist Templars in SPAAAAACE is that in that milieu you're either a Force user or your a Force user's pet.
Psionics are supposed to be an exotic skill set, nothing else. They are not Massive Cosmic Power, they are not a cheat in the system. Traveller treats psionics a skill, nothing more and nothing less. Most PCs will never reach the levels of psionic skill or PSI strength to bend the universe to their will, and that's how it should be.

 

[Limpin Legin]

The whole point of the -1 DM per rolled attempt rule is to keep player characters from being frikkin' Jedi.
One of the legitimate complaints about Star Wars' Buddhist Templars in SPAAAAACE is that in that milieu you're either a Force user or your a Force user's pet.
Psionics are supposed to be an exotic skill set, nothing else.

Just speculating here, but maybe that reply suggest that, like the Imperium, you fear the unknown and want to outlaw it and make it taboo?
The question here is, how does that "taboo" work in terms of game mechanics. Yes, a -1 DM is applied. We've all noted that. But specifically, in context of the OP, how is it applied? The Rulebook discusses both the mechanics of Psionics and notes the Imperium's legal stance, but doesn't put an end to the OP's enquiry.

 

[Vormaerin]

The CT version of the rules just said that training took 4 months and cost Cr100,000. You rolled 2d6 for each Talent in the order of your choice, with the increasing penalty applied after the first. It was entirely possible to be a trained psi with no talents at all. Mongoose changed it so that you could succeed automatically at Telepathy if it was your first check.

While there is no explicit statement in Mongoose that you can't test the same thing over again in the basic training for Psionics, it would be a pretty substantial departure from how the rules worked in previous editions.

 

[Limpin Legin]

That is still a possibility if you don't pick Telepathy as the first choice.