Rules Clarification: Agent Programs (CSCp69)

[Yenaldlooshi]

Questions about the Agent program found in CSC on p69:

Why would I ever use any level or bw of Agent beyond Agent/0? The text does not seem to describe what the different levels can do for you.

In any case, why would I ever use Agent/2+ instead of Intellect+Expert(Electronic(Computers))/3 as this is cheaper than Agent?
Breakdown of costs:
Expert(Electronics(Computer))/3 = Cr 10,000
Intellect/1 = Cr2,000
Total Cost = Cr12,000
Runs at Skill 2 autonomously
vs:
Agent/2 =Cr100,000
Agent/3 =Cr250,000
Runs at.....? autonomously

What would the scope limit be for the phrase "and a single-purpose Intellect software package"? There is the one example of "an Agent package might be told to hack into an enemy computer system and steal a particular data file" but does that mean it can do only that one data file and no other data file in the universe? If so, then again, why would you put sunk costs into that one file and not buy intellect+expert to do any file anytime?

"and can use the full bandwidth of a computer to complete its tasks."? What exactly does this mean? Why would you want to "use up the full BW of your computer"? To what advantage? Does this mean it can max out your computer's BW, just... cause?

My guess; Agent/3 can run at skill 3 with no -DM like Intellect+Expert(computers)/3 would have. Still, this makes expert/3+Intellect which give Skill-2 at a total cost of 12K a far lower cost that Agent/2 at 100K which would also give a Skill-2

Someone help me makes sense of why this program exists other than to maybe give a Skill-3 for autonomous work at the mere price of a quarter mil.

 

[Limpin Legin]

In any case, why would I ever use Agent/2+ instead of Intellect+Expert(Electronic(Computers))/3 ... ?

Expert/3 = Intellect/1 + Electronics(Computers)/2
Agent/3 = Intellect/1 (built in) + Electronics(Computer)/3

Ie, Expert/3 will never have the bandwidth for Electronics(Computers)/3 whereas Agent/3 will do.

What would the scope limit be for the phrase "and a single-purpose Intellect software package"?

Means "Intellect/1"

... does that mean it can do only that one data file and no other data file in the universe?

No, it means user can specify the one file and the agent will go off and steal that one file per task check. So, if user wants agent to steal two data files, then that would entail making two successive task checks with the agent.

To what advantage?

Rules-as-written, the difference is that the agent can act autonomously. "Autonomously" means freedom to decide without human control. "Autonomy" is not stipulated on Expert software packages, suggesting that the user not only has to specify the data file to be stolen (as per your example), but also specify where the file can be found, etc.

 

[Vormaerin]

Expert Programs essentially give the user the skill, the user has to be involved in the use. Agents use the skill on their own. You can assign them a task while you are doing something else entirely.

 

[Yenaldlooshi]

Expert/3 = Intellect/1 + Electronics(Computers)/2
Agent/3 = Intellect/1 + Electronics(Computer)/3

Ie, Expert/3 will never have the bandwidth for Electronics(Computers)/3 whereas Agent/3 will do.

Yes, but I was asking about Agent/2. Why use this is you can get Expert/3+Intellect/1 at a much lower price for the same skill of Skill-2? This would mean that there is no situation where Agent/2 has any value over expert/3+intellect/1

Means "Intellect/1"

sounds simple put that way... (wasn't put that way). I'll go with that though.

No, it means user can specify the one file and the agent will go off and steal that one file per task check. So, if user wants agent to steal two data files, then that would entail making two successive task checks with the agent.

This helps clarify that one point.

Rules-as-written, the difference is that the agent can act autonomously. "Autonomously" means freedom to decide without human control. "Autonomy" is not stipulated on Expert software packages, suggesting that the user not only has to specify the data file to be stolen (as per your example), but also specify where the file can be found, etc.

Maybe but in all my examples that I compare are Intellect+Expert. on CSC p71, the description of Intellect is "An Intellect software package is similar to the more primitive Agent, with more advanced intelligence, able to communicate normally with a Traveller and run an assigned Expert package." wouldn't this mean it actually can act more autonomously than Agent?

So excepting the advantage of Agent giving a computer-3 skill, I am still finding zero advantage to Agent versus Intellect+Expert.

Also, I am guessing that "and can use the full bandwidth of a computer to complete its tasks" really means; "and can dedicate its full bandwith to running tasks without imposing a -1 to the skill level, thus, Agent-1 has a skill of 1, Agent-2 has skill 2 etc." meaning they should never have used the phrase "full bandwidth of a computer"

 

[Yenaldlooshi]

Expert Programs essentially give the user the skill, the user has to be involved in the use. Agents use the skill on their own. You can assign them a task while you are doing something else entirely.

Expert programs all require some level of "AI" (except I guess on a specialized computer). Intellect, intelligent interface or digital friend, we find Intellect has this description; p71 "An Intellect software package is similar to the more primitive Agent, with more advanced intelligence, able to communicate normally with a Traveller and run an assigned Expert package."
This indicates that you do NOT have to be involved and that it is in fact has more intelligence than Agent.

 

[Limpin Legin]

Yes, but I was asking about Agent/2.

Well, you actually asked about Agent/2+ (please check and confirm!), so I went for Agent/3. If I went for Agent/2 then it has advantage of operating autonomously. That would be the only advantage I can see but do read discussion below.

on CSC p71, the description of Intellect is "An Intellect software package is similar to the more primitive Agent,

Yes, I saw that and thought "Woa! What's going on here? That looks counter intuitive." It is not worded like that in MgT 1e.

Looking at the 2e wording, I think it is only comparing the Intellect s/w package with the "single-purpose Intellect" feature of the Agent. That might sound wishful thinking on my behalf, but to back up my claim, I can highlight that the description is not making the same comparison between the Agent's Expert Electronics (computers) and the Expert s/w package.

Plus, it only says "Intellect s/w package is similar ... with more advanced intelligence, able to communicate normally with a Traveller ... It can simultaneously run any Expert package ..." but there is no mention that an Expert s/w package can run autonomously, like the Agent.

While Intellect can run different Expert packages simultaneously, the Agent can only run the Electronics (computers) s/w. So that is what I think the description is getting at when it says an Intellect is similar to the "more primitive Agent." I worked that out through process of elimination, with a goal that, given it's relative price, there has to be an advantage of the Agent. But the text description doesn't give me full confidence that is what is meant - so, I could be wrong. Just that the alternative - Expert( Electronics (computer)) is all round better than the Agent - doesn't justify the relative price differences, IMO. Otherwise, manufacturers of the Agent would be out of business all across Charted Space!

 

[Yenaldlooshi]

THANK YOU!! You see it too. Here is what I am thinking.... my house rule is going to simply be, dropping Agent completely.
It is confusing at best, redundant at worst, and even though it allows for a Skill-3 in computers, I think I would rather keep with the skill cap of 2 that Intellect+Expert has. "Hack the Charted Space" is something I want to keep limited in my game anyway.

Intelligent Interface can stay, it will be the dumbed down AI. Intellect will be the go to standard that can do anything the other AI's can do and then some.

Also while I am at it, "Digital Friend" should go too because it reminds me too much of "Clippy" and I don't really want to use the Sanity rules from Companion. Even if I did, I'd be more inclined to say that Clippy, I mean, "Digital Friend" would more likely supply a negative DM rather than a positive Sanity DM

 

[Limpin Legin]

... dropping Agent completely. It is confusing at best, redundant at worst, and even though it allows for a Skill-3 in computers

Yes, the description on Agent software does appear confusing. Even if you have a background in distributed networked software, where Agent-Orientated Software plays a more crucial role, the clarity and purpose of this description is lacking.

"Hack the Charted Space" is something I want to keep limited in my game anyway.

Yes. Understood. Although the Electronics (computer) skill is broader than that one example task of hacking. And hacking is still possible if sophonts have training in the skill. So eliminating the s/w doesn't really circumvent using the skill for hacking tasks - if that is the sort of thing you wish to avoid. A possibly better idea would be to increase the difficulty of the Task check involved in hacking. That way both s/w and unaided sophonts would find that way forward difficult.

Digital Friend" would more likely supply a negative DM rather than a positive Sanity DM

I've never used DF s/w. It is described as a humanity thing, especially during long periods of isolation. Inclusion of such a DF in an adventure seems to give credence to NPC motives and background story, rather than spell out anything useful for the Travellers. But it might be useful if the Travellers ever come across a ship's brain, as that will likely need some kind of personality.

 

[Yenaldlooshi]

Inclusion of such a DF in an adventure seems to give credence to NPC motives and background story, rather than spell out anything useful for the Travellers. But it might be useful if the Travellers ever come across a ship's brain, as that will likely need some kind of personality.

I have no problem letting Intellect play that role. Essentially, I have been treating Intellect as dis-embodied "droids" like in the Star Wars franchise. They can have names and I treat them much like NPC's. They can be configured with voice types, and personalities, but these never get in the way of what their main function is. They may not be able to do many things at once, but they can be given instructions to perform tasks in series, with no downtime between completions.

 

[swordtart]

Questions about the Agent program found in CSC on p69:

Why would I ever use any level or bw of Agent beyond Agent/0? The text does not seem to describe what the different levels can do for you.

In any case, why would I ever use Agent/2+ instead of Intellect+Expert(Electronic(Computers))/3 as this is cheaper than Agent?
Breakdown of costs:
Expert(Electronics(Computer))/3 = Cr 10,000
Intellect/1 = Cr2,000
Total Cost = Cr12,000
Runs at Skill 2 autonomously
vs:
Agent/2 =Cr100,000
Agent/3 =Cr250,000
Runs at.....? autonomously

I took the costs of Agent/2 and Agent/3 to be errors and should have a zero knocked off (i.e. they should be KCr10 and KCr25 respectively). The step difference is wholly incompatible with the revised Expert costs introduced in CSC. Previously in the Core rules book an Expert 3 package would have cost you KCr100 vs only KCr10 in CRB).

Alternatively the price of Expert Packages in CSC should be increased 10-fold to make them match the CRB.

What would the scope limit be for the phrase "and a single-purpose Intellect software package"?

I took single purpose Intellect to mean it is Intellect that can only run Electronics(Computers) . Specialised computers are also optimised to be able to use a single expert package that cannot be changed (but you get full choice on which Expert Package). The normal Intellect can use whatever Expert packages you choose to load at any specific time. I would also allow those Expert Electronics

"and can use the full bandwidth of a computer to complete its tasks."? What exactly does this mean? Why would you want to "use up the full BW of your computer"? To what advantage? Does this mean it can max out your computer's BW, just... cause?

It means the Intellect built into the Agent doesn't cost the 1 or more bandwidth that normal agent takes up. This is quite useful for cheap Retro-tech computers or many computers built into other equipment as having to have an extra 1 bandwidth to accommodate an Intellect package can significantly increase the price or TL. This is less of an issue with normal computers.

I took the level of the conventional Intellect package to mean the number of different expert programmes that can be operating at the same time though the wording is a bit woolly. Intellect/2 for example could run Expert Electronics(Computers) and Expert Medic simultaneously to hack an Autodoc and override it. The level of Expert is entirely independent of the level of Intellect.

My guess; Agent/3 can run at skill 3 with no -DM like Intellect+Expert(computers)/3 would have. Still, this makes expert/3+Intellect which give Skill-2 at a total cost of 12K a far lower cost that Agent/2 at 100K which would also give a Skill-2

I would concur that as Expert explicitly says it runs at -1 to its level and Agent doesn't state this means that Agent/2 allows it to autonomously operate as though it had Electronics(Computers) 2. To achieve the same with an Expert Package would require both Intellect and Expert Electronics(Computers)/3.

If you accept my reasoning regarding the cost the Agent would cost KCr10 and require a Bandwidth 2 computer. The Expert route would cost you KCr2 for the Intellect, KCr10 for the Expert Package and would require a Bandwidth 4 computer. Agent is a bit cheaper, much more compact but it is very much a 1 trick pony.

It is not possible to get Electronics(Computers) 3 using an Expert Package but it is possible using Agent/3

 

[Yenaldlooshi]

It is not possible to get Electronics(Computers) 3 using an Expert Package but it is possible using Agent/3

Other than this one advantage the whole thing seems redundant and does not really add much value to the game for such a high cost in terms of confusion. I think Intellect and Intelligent Interface are enough. Agent and Digital Friend just muddy the water without much to be gained. imho

 

[Vormaerin]

The entirety of Traveller's computer system is problematic, frankly. There are lots and lots of problems with it, both at the small scale and at the ship scale. The various non sentient AI programs are just symptoms of that.

 

[swordtart]

There is clearly some rationalisation required. Some of it is fallout from the 1970's idea of what the possibilities of computers would be. Some of that has been handwaved away as ships computers don't take up tonnage anymore so at least that is one problem we sidestepped.

Some people think computers and software are too good for the price, but high priced computers and software seem a bit illogical with the boom in mobile phone computing power. I can buy a phone for £10 today that has more computing power than the one my dad paid £1000 for back in the 80's (and 1980's £'s are worth more as well). There arguably isn't even a TL difference between them.

AI helper / Expert software is also sensible as without it you cannot have robots. The AI isn't the sentient AI from cyberpunk though, it is the sort of AI we will have in a few years after the modelling has had soe chance to bed down and some of the garbage has been filtered out (deciding whether that is a good or bad thing is an exercise for the reader).

So it seems to me to be on the right trajectory but in doing so we'll move away from the retro future the 60's SF that inspired the 70's RPG initially started from. I am not sure how to square that circle though. Very little 70's future gazing ended up where we are now, so I am sceptical that any 2020's future gazing will converge on the 2030's let alone the 5630's.

 

[MasterGwydion]

There is clearly some rationalisation required. Some of it is fallout from the 1970's idea of what the possibilities of computers would be. Some of that has been handwaved away as ships computers don't take up tonnage anymore so at least that is one problem we sidestepped.

Some people think computers and software are too good for the price, but high priced computers and software seem a bit illogical with the boom in mobile phone computing power. I can buy a phone for £10 today that has more computing power than the one my dad paid £1000 for back in the 80's (and 1980's £'s are worth more as well). There arguably isn't even a TL difference between them.

AI helper / Expert software is also sensible as without it you cannot have robots. The AI isn't the sentient AI from cyberpunk though, it is the sort of AI we will have in a few years after the modelling has had soe chance to bed down and some of the garbage has been filtered out (deciding whether that is a good or bad thing is an exercise for the reader).

So it seems to me to be on the right trajectory but in doing so we'll move away from the retro future the 60's SF that inspired the 70's RPG initially started from. I am not sure how to square that circle though. Very little 70's future gazing ended up where we are now, so I am sceptical that any 2020's future gazing will converge on the 2030's let alone the 5630's.

That last part is easy. We won't be around as a race in the 5630s. We are far too stupid to make it that far. Even the Dark Imperium ideas are a rosy future because they all assume we don't kill ourselves off first.

 

[Limpin Legin]

That last part is easy. We won't be around as a race in the 5630s. We are far too stupid to make it that far. Even the Dark Imperium ideas are a rosy future because they all assume we don't kill ourselves off first.

That is a possible adventure seed. Maybe the machines will take over, but they wont showcase themselves that way solely based on what the current rulesets provide.

 

[Limpin Legin]

The serious design flaw is that numerous descriptions conflict with the very numbers they are supposed to represent. 70s/80s tech is well represented in 2e, but any TL8+ tech in Traveller doesn't stand up unambiguously according to it's own description. Eg. Agents, Experts, Clusters, Jacks, Intelligent Interfaces and Intellects all fall down according to the disparity between text description and numeric characteristics. Which is a startling problem considering science drives speculative science fiction and Traveller is a science fiction game.

The whole thing (both software and hardware) needs to be architected, in the same way character sheets, ship, robot and firearm construction is architected around their unique design forms along with unique, unambiguous, attributes and traits. I would very much like to see some Traveller tech with traits as that would allow referees and players design their own programs that can be implemented with the various architectures.

Architectures like from the basic analogue computers and digital von Neuman, thru to systolic arrays, neural nets, knowledge-bases and inference engines, security-hardened architectures, load-balanced distributed architectures, processor farms, virtual architectures, unified cognitive architectures and possibly novel cyber-logics and FTL logics. Each architecture would provide different scope for the implementation of different traits and would have unambiguous abstract (non-physical) dimensions that limit capacity.

 

[Yenaldlooshi]

Honestly, all of this is interesting to read, no doubt. For myself, I am just trying to collect cohesive game rules that maintain balance and fun. Real world stuff, even in Traveller, which is the thing that first made me care most about learning about the real world when I was an adolescent, should only intrude on my game mechanics when it seems cool and is playable.

In this game, I don't like items that make no sense for a player to ever buy because there is another item that does the same thing better and cheaper. Agent vs Intellect, I need a good rationale why I should have both IMTU. Lacking that, I'll cut out Agent, the weaker of the two.

Beyond this, I am ok with the super basic-ness of computers in the game. Like most people that play it seems, I too have and IT career and background. I am not prepared to mix my work into my RPG. To say the way computers are handled in Traveller is crude, is an understatement, but to handle it much different could take away from the game imho.

Limpin Legin, what you described sounds cool, to group of players that are all coders and sysadmins, but I would probably want to stab my eyes out if a GM brought all that to the table. That said, you probably have the makings for a good Traveller sourcebook for DTRPG. Which I would actually probably buy.

For myself, I can use the computer rules as written with just these house rule clarifications:

• Loading a Program into Personal PC CPU from Wafer or another PC: Personal Combat Significant Action (6sec)
• Loading a Program into Starship CPU from Wafer or another PC: Space Combat Action Step Action (6min)
• Unloading a Program: Free action (no action really)
• Transferring data: Significant action, regardless of amount.
• Loading a program via implant: free action if wafer already inserted in implant
• Network speed is speed of light between two systems that are within transceiver range, no matter how big the data is.
• Wafer storage is near infinity at least out to a sectors worth of info.
• Agent and Digital Friend don't exist, because... why?
• Hacking a local PC, normal computer rules probably ok.
• Hacking a financial network, even just an ATM, is near impossible, even on a low TL planet. (why? because unless this is an uncontacted world, your hack attempt probably does not make you a "zero day exploiter" for them. They would have beefed up their financial security to the standard of interstellar communication even if they had to pay extra for TL15 ATM's to be imported.) If you are playing Traveller: The IT Hacker's World, then sure, maybe. We can use Cyberpunk rules if that is the case... so no.
• Other world breaking hacks are also near impossible for the same reasons. ie. it would have been done already.

 

[rinku]

I'm not sure where the confusion lies, aside from the listings in the Core Book being very compact.

Expert programs are the skill ones. Usable by a character to have the skill at bandwidth -1, or to get a +1 to an existing skill. If you do have an existing skill, you may as well just get the cheap bandwidth 1 version. If you *don't* have the skill, you'd benefit from the higher skill rated programs. Mostly, though, those are of benefit for Intellect programs.

Intellect programs are general AI that may be loaded up with any Expert programs. Their bandwidth limits how many expert programs they can run at once, but not the level of the expert. Per the example, they use a skill level of Expert bandwidth -1.

Agent programs just perform Electronics (Computer) tasks that you tell them to do, at a level of their own bandwidth. They are self contained and cheaper than an Intellect program running Expert Electronics (Computer). However, it's all they can do - an Intellect running Electronics (computer) (at a skill level of bandwidth -1) might also have a relevant skill for the task at hand, or can swap to some other job that doesn't use Electronics.

Intelligent Interface is a prerequisite for Expert systems, so you'll need at least a bandwidth of 2 to run them. Fortunately TL11 portable computers are /2, so you're good to go there. Agent programs don't need it, and I would say Intellects ones don't either. Or rather, those already include it in their own, more expensive and higher tech selves for their own purposes. A human would still need the Cr100 version loaded to run the Expert program for themselves. But hey - if you're ruling that you need bandwidth/3 to run Intelligent Interface, Intellect/1 and an Expert/1 skill, you either get a TL 12 portable computer or a TL11 specialist one, or run that stuff on something like a ship's computer and have it report back via comms.

I'm also not really seeing much of an issue regarding tech and capability here. This is TL11+ stuff, under that it's just folks and their own skills, maybe using a database to get a bonus or Boon. And keep in mind, a skill level in Traveller is a BIG THING. A +1 from any source is a great help; a +2 is effectively an easier task level.

 

[Yenaldlooshi]

They are self contained and cheaper than an Intellect program running Expert Electronics (Computer).

Agent/2 giving skill level 2= Cr100,000 (CSC pg69)
Intellect/1+Expert/3(computers) = Cr2,000+Cr10,000 = Cr12,000 (albeit, at double the BW requirements, but NOT cheaper) CSCpg70

Same skill level, Cr88,000 cheaper for the intellect+expert.

 

[Vormaerin]

(albeit, at double the BW requirements, but NOT cheaper) CSCpg70

Double the bandwidth is not an insignificant cost.