Romulan Tactics
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Pavlov Grenadier
Mongoose
I like the idea of regular cloak move then the teleport move on the turn you decloak. Do you suggest the 6" "teleport" move is immediately after you move the ship or at the end of the movement phase (after seeing where all the other ships are)? Also, were you thinking that I get a 45degree turn during my regular 6" move and then also the 45degree "turn" when repositioning?
Now Im speaking from no tabletop experience with the Romulans but after hours of theorycrafting (and you know thats scientific :lol: ), it seems to me that the 6" move is the real killer. I just cant see how anyone would allow the Romulans to get close enough to even decloack (maybe with the exception of Gorn). Is it the consensus that you have to be within 12" to even get a chance to do damage with your Plasma Torps (8" being preferable)?
Wouldn’t the enemy just move up, get within 18-24", clink away with Phazers/Disruptors and back up 4" per turn while you move up 6" (essentially closing at 2" per turn). So if most games only last 6-8 turns (how much time for a tourney game), how do you get close enough??
So from those that have played, how are you doing it?
Now Im speaking from no tabletop experience with the Romulans but after hours of theorycrafting (and you know thats scientific :lol: ), it seems to me that the 6" move is the real killer. I just cant see how anyone would allow the Romulans to get close enough to even decloack (maybe with the exception of Gorn). Is it the consensus that you have to be within 12" to even get a chance to do damage with your Plasma Torps (8" being preferable)?
Wouldn’t the enemy just move up, get within 18-24", clink away with Phazers/Disruptors and back up 4" per turn while you move up 6" (essentially closing at 2" per turn). So if most games only last 6-8 turns (how much time for a tourney game), how do you get close enough??
So from those that have played, how are you doing it?
Captain Jonah
Mongoose
Humm now that is far more scary. It makes up for the 6" move in spades. The ability of all De-cloaking ships to reposition 6" as they appear AFTER all movement is done. Make a note of which ships are De=CLoaking. Move all ships. THEN move the de-cloakers 6" and reveal them
This allows a significant level of sneakiness but isn't grossly overpowering as I see it. The distance involved isn't great, 6" even with the teleport effect, and since you declare De-Cloaking as your special action everyone knows its coming.
However knowing its coming and preventing are very different things. With a 6" teleport and 8" on the plasmas this gives you a 28" target circle to gang up on someone and since they don't know who you are going after because everyone moves as normal then you get to do the 6" jump its going to mean that the only possible way to avoid anyone getting ganged up on is to run away.
Again a simple change to the wording, it doesn’t change how the cloak works or any of the interaction between cloaks and everyone else. It changes tactics and game play not how the rules work together.
Nasty :twisted:
All Bark and No Burn :lol:
This allows a significant level of sneakiness but isn't grossly overpowering as I see it. The distance involved isn't great, 6" even with the teleport effect, and since you declare De-Cloaking as your special action everyone knows its coming.
However knowing its coming and preventing are very different things. With a 6" teleport and 8" on the plasmas this gives you a 28" target circle to gang up on someone and since they don't know who you are going after because everyone moves as normal then you get to do the 6" jump its going to mean that the only possible way to avoid anyone getting ganged up on is to run away.
Again a simple change to the wording, it doesn’t change how the cloak works or any of the interaction between cloaks and everyone else. It changes tactics and game play not how the rules work together.
Nasty :twisted:
gord314 said:
All Bark and No Burn :lol:
Pavlov Grenadier
Mongoose
Captain Jonah said:
Exactly :wink: We will test that out during our next game with the Romulans and let you all know how it works out.
Captain Jonah said:
No. No, no, no, you see, you've gone right off the track here...
We tried this (and many other variations) during playtesting. What you are talking about will make Romulans unstoppable. There is a _good_ reason why, when they decloak, they get the 6" move, but only that and nothing more. It allows them to get a jump on the enemy, but the opposing fleet must be able to respond in some way or they get chewed up.
Romulans _really_ don't need any rebalancing. I don't think anyone wondering how they can get near a target while moving just 6" while cloaked has really played this game. It is kind of the opposite to the 'OMG Kzinti Drones have a 36" range, they will rule!' argument - when you get minis on the table. you will find ranges evaporate very quickly (and as for the argument that Kzinti will destroy enemy fleets because they can gang up on single vessels, well, anyone can do that... The weakness of the Kzinti comes from what happens when the smoke clears and the drones have flown - they have no good answer after that).
Seriously, you (and I mean you all
) have to play this game before worrying about whether a fleet fits in or not - and if you find a fleet has lost, like the OP, sit back and figure out what went wrong in the game, not how to change the rules so they can win.One way in SFB for the Roms to safely cloak and run away involved using a Wild Weasel (a shuttle loaded with electronics to give off the signature of the ship, which is launched and draws away seeking weapons targeted on the launching ship).
If the Roms could launch a Weasel as they announce Cloak, it would greatly enhance their survivability. It wouldn't be difficult to implement, and would give any race the ability to do something with their nearly useless shuttles.
If the Roms could launch a Weasel as they announce Cloak, it would greatly enhance their survivability. It wouldn't be difficult to implement, and would give any race the ability to do something with their nearly useless shuttles.
Captain Jonah
Mongoose
msprange said:Seriously, you (and I mean you all
Planning on getting lots of games but I have two problems:
A slight delay in getting ships :wink:
Living in a town and county where not having GW stamped on it makes it evil or something :roll:
billclo said:
No WWs please. I'm looking for simple rules changes that change the tactical play not comple multi rule interactions. WWs interact with some many things in the game they would represent a maor rules change, see the WW thread.
Keeper Nilbog
Mongoose
Matt, like to see a Gorn fleet all target one ships with Plasma's :twisted: :? - swurlly Plasma death.
I posted on another thread and wondered what Romulan palyers thought about this idea for using the ships they have?
against the apparently deadily Federation fleet of:
3x BCH
1x NCL
1x DW
I have not played with the Romulans but I would try:
3 KF5R Destroyers - In sinks - keep them out of the way of ships they are there to try and make your opponent move his ships as you want them to. They can hopefully swoop in mid to late game to try and get kills but in the meantime use terrain or the cloak and their better front shields - if not cloaked send them round the flanks to lurk ready to pounce.
1 KR Heavy Cruiser - In sink taking advantage of its better front shields
1 Sparrowhawk Light Cruiser - attack ship - alt in sink if it can reach terrain to hide behind after declaoking and firing as it is agile.
2 King Eagle Cruiser try and killl things with these ships - also for Command
I really don't know if it would work but he should be moving almost all of his ships before you move your King Eagle and Sparrowhawk ad if you win initiaitive - all of his ships. This should be important in the turn after you declaok as he has likely to move all of his ships and you can then either choose to recloak or run for terrain
against the apparently deadily Federation fleet of:
3x BCH
1x NCL
1x DW
I have not played with the Romulans but I would try:
3 KF5R Destroyers - In sinks - keep them out of the way of ships they are there to try and make your opponent move his ships as you want them to. They can hopefully swoop in mid to late game to try and get kills but in the meantime use terrain or the cloak and their better front shields - if not cloaked send them round the flanks to lurk ready to pounce.
1 KR Heavy Cruiser - In sink taking advantage of its better front shields
1 Sparrowhawk Light Cruiser - attack ship - alt in sink if it can reach terrain to hide behind after declaoking and firing as it is agile.
2 King Eagle Cruiser try and killl things with these ships - also for Command
I really don't know if it would work but he should be moving almost all of his ships before you move your King Eagle and Sparrowhawk ad if you win initiaitive - all of his ships. This should be important in the turn after you declaok as he has likely to move all of his ships and you can then either choose to recloak or run for terrain
Matt, I don't think you are right in this case. I started this thread after about 10 (maybe it was 8 with two more in the meantime) games against the Romulans, so its not like we don't have any tabletop experiance (and both players are experienced gamers). Are we going to play more games? Of course. Are we going to try new strategies? Of course. But in the meantime we are going to give the Romulans some boosts because one sided campaigns are pretty dull.
The Romulans may be as good as you say, but if so how to get them there certainly isn't obvious.
The Romulans may be as good as you say, but if so how to get them there certainly isn't obvious.
Da Boss said:
With that many Initiative sinks hiding somewhere you aren't going to do enough damage. A King eagle does about 40 damage assuming the target uses 2 phaser-3s of defensive fire, one of which hits. So you get a take down the shields of a Kirov and do some damage besides, but it will take two ships to kill or cripple one, and it gets to shoot back in the meantime. If the Federation player decides to use defensive fire and gets a little lucky on their rolls, they might get away without losing any ships at all. If they don't defensive fire, their return fire will destroy or cripple two Romulan ships and greatly weaken the last one.
Boost Shields causes power drain, so they either have to limit their firepower or reduce their move, and against that Fed list I would flank/avoid the BCHs, and blow up their support ships, find cover, recloak, reload, and finish off the BCHs piece meal. I would also switch out one of the King Eagles, and the KR for another Sparrowhawk and a Skyhawks. Skyhawks would be my ideal ship against drone heavy fleets as they have 4 phaser 1s in most arcs and a phaser 3 in each P/S half arc. I might actually change up that entire list...I'll post my list later.
As for a house rule, maybe just giving Romulans the option to switch for some Plasma-Ds for drone defense, same for the Gorns.
As for a house rule, maybe just giving Romulans the option to switch for some Plasma-Ds for drone defense, same for the Gorns.
The problem with trying to flank with Romulans is that if you get into actual flanking position, the Federation can just run away. Since the Federation can move backwards 4 inches, the Romulans have to get pretty close before you can avoid their front arc since you are only gaining 2 inches or so on them. Once the Romulans are this close, an all power to engines will get the behind the Romulan fleet. The Romulans could leave some of their fleet back to prevent this, but then you have half a Romulan fleet fighting a whole federation fleet.
Iain McGhee
Mongoose
I've used Romulans in a number of games against Feds and Klingons (mostly around 800pt, a handful double that) and only really had problems when using the old Eagle ships. Bit too fragile even with armour and too reliant on their cloak IMO, although decent enough in smaller games and certain scenarios. The Hawk series in particular is quite capable of going toe to toe with their opposite numbers in my experience, although the Klingons are a little trickier to handle since they can't be outmanoeuvred as easily as most of the Feds to limit their heavy weapon target choices.
TJHairball
Mongoose
I will comment that in our first few games (gord314, plutonyum, and I all play each other) we tended to drive in to the center for an unsophisticated mutual bloodbath as we figured out how to play the game.msprange said:No. No, no, no, you see, you've gone right off the track here...
We tried this (and many other variations) during playtesting. What you are talking about will make Romulans unstoppable. There is a _good_ reason why, when they decloak, they get the 6" move, but only that and nothing more. It allows them to get a jump on the enemy, but the opposing fleet must be able to respond in some way or they get chewed up.
Romulans _really_ don't need any rebalancing. I don't think anyone wondering how they can get near a target while moving just 6" while cloaked has really played this game. It is kind of the opposite to the 'OMG Kzinti Drones have a 36" range, they will rule!' argument - when you get minis on the table. you will find ranges evaporate very quickly (and as for the argument that Kzinti will destroy enemy fleets because they can gang up on single vessels, well, anyone can do that... The weakness of the Kzinti comes from what happens when the smoke clears and the drones have flown - they have no good answer after that).
Seriously, you (and I mean you all
Then we learned the capability of these things in general, and things started to fall into place. We're pretty experienced with tactical games, so it only took a couple games of doing boneheaded things while we worked out the rules for us to put the pieces together. If a Romulan ship starts 14" from your ship, it can [and probably will] come in and drop a ton of plasmas. Outside of 14", it's not a terribly lethal barrage.
Defensive fire is a "free" action, so what happens when you're playing against Romulans is that you may as well just roll for defensive fire on everyone if you don't know what's up; and boost shields on anything that looks like a great target, like the Kirov at the front of your formation.
For all that gord314 started this thread saying that the Federation clobbers Romulans, it's me - the Klingon player - who has posted an unbroken string of overwhelming victories over the Romulans in two-way matches since we started a three-way campaign. IIRC, I have a higher win percentage with Klingons against Romulans than he does with the Federation against Romulans.
If the Romulans decloak and alpha strike, it's going to be in my front arc, and it's going to be when I'm expecting them. It's either going to be because I decided it was a good time to engage seriously, or because they spread their fleet across the entire board - which has its own problems.
I forget whether or not I mentioned the game that I patiently circled all the way around a Romulan fleet and over to their home edge while they tried to advance on me under cloak. That's what 6" per turn means. If I stay out of 14", keep my front pointed towards the Romulans' "zone of sudden decloaking," keep lobbing those disruptors their way for the [very slow] attrition of damage, and roll on defensive fire whenever I don't have something else to do, I'm pretty well off. Unless there's a single objective I have to get close to, I don't see what the Romulans can do about that.
Advance part of the fleet under cloak while the rest engages? Well, the decloaked part of the fleet is going to be at a disadvantage. As far as we can tell, it really seems like the Romulans are fairly weak.
I'd really like to take some issue with your comment on drones, though. I think you don't quite understand the tactical reasons why drones are as good as they are.
The reason an entire fleet can engage with drones, but not other weapons, is because entire fleet isn't concentrated at a single point. For various reasons - different movement, different weapons, special objectives, et cetera - fleets are going to be somewhat dispersed from each other in position and facing.
As a Klingon player, I have to be particularly sensitive to making sure my ships' facings vary according to the position of enemy ships on the map; even so, it's not always possible to keep all of them in my front arc, and different ships will be different in different ranges from different targets.
Let's say I have a pair of D6s, 10" apart (say, picking up two different counters in "We come in peace / Shoot to kill"). My enemy approaches with a pair of ships, also 10" apart, 8" away from my pair of ships. That means that the diagonal is about 13". I can fire phaser-1s in kill zone and disruptors at 3+ to hit at both ships, dealing about 10 damage to each - or I can focus on one ship, dealing about 16 damage to each. And that's if my facing is correct. If my ships are pointed straight forward, then the other ship is out of front arc, so I can only add the phasers, splitting damage 12 and 5, or 10 each. It's a tactical dilemma; I have the choice of more focused damage, or higher damage.
With my drones, however, neither facing nor position matters; and, in fact, because the target ship is a guaranteed source of defensive fire, it's actually more effective for me to focus fire - I might expect to hit with, say, 3/4 drones instead of 1/2 each. Because drones are 36"(T) weapons and, unlike all shorter-range weapons, do not decline in effectiveness with range, there is no opportunity cost to focusing drone fire.
Since focusing fire is good in large scale battles, and drones can be focused perfectly at no cost at any range [and focusing increases their effectiveness], drones increase sharply in effectiveness as the size of the battle increases.
Another reason that drones are good is that drones themselves are one of the best defenses against drones. Drone-fire is something that gord314 and I pay attention to closely in our Federation vs Klingon matches, even though I have anti-drone on all my ships and he has the option of launching his drones as anti-drone.
