Robotic ships

[High Orbit Drifter]

I know that jump capable ships must be manned. That is if you ignore that little blurb about jump-torpedos in the Leviathan adventure. Let's just say you have to have a living, thinking being in a jump ship.

What about non-starships? Is there any canon saying they have to be manned too? For example, freight, supply or fuel ships launched from a planetary surface to orbit or another point in the system. Couldn't they be designed and operate much the same way our currrent robotic probes of the planets work?

Technically I know there is not an issue. But is there anything in the setting that says you can't do that?

 

[mr31337]

I know that jump capable ships must be manned. That is if you ignore that little blurb about jump-torpedos in the Leviathan adventure. Let's just say you have to have a living, thinking being in a jump ship.

What about non-starships? Is there any canon saying they have to be manned too? For example, freight, supply or fuel ships launched from a planetary surface to orbit or another point in the system. Couldn't they be designed and operate much the same way our currrent robotic probes of the planets work?

Technically I know there is not an issue. But is there anything in the setting that says you can't do that?

Please cite where it says that there must be a human aboard for a ship to jump. I don't recall ever reading that, except on forums where it is usually dismissed as invalid.

The robots in Mongoose Traveller have access to the same skills as humans and I haven't read anywhere that this is excluding operating a jump capable ship. Some robots can be player characters, intelligent, organic framed robots, with personality programs, and to suggest they could not jump a ship is just absurd.

 

[High Orbit Drifter]

I don't agree with the concept either, especially in light of jump-torpedoes. I think the idea stems from the LBB Book 2, page 16. "Each ship requires a crew. On small ships, the crew may be one person, on larger ships, the crew can be quite large."

I don't recall exactly any where else, but I know that the requirement for a living, thinking sophont has been used to justify the whole idea of the X-Boat system. Otherwise why not just use jump torpedoes, since it would be much cheaper than using manned ships?

This may also stem from Larry Niven's Known Space universe setting, a major source of inspiration for the original authors. The stardrive from that setting is partially psionic, so it needs a living, intelligent pilot/navigator to work.

On the other hand there was that whole Virus, The New Era with 'vampire fleets' or otherwise robot controlled ships. Although Virus itself was a living organism, just one based on silicone, and murder, so I guess that 'other hand' is more like a foot in the mouth.

 

[darue]

I'm not so sure it's absurd to say AI can't jump ships. First off, it's a huge change if they can, almost no background material refers to AI/robots in history. The possibility that there is some weird not-fully-understood psionic-or-otherwise component to FTL works for me. The human mind on board thing just makes a lot of sense to me, and provides a possible reason for some misjumps resulting in lost ships... the life support fails or for some other reason everyone on board died in transit... so the ship is not able to exit jumpspace. Additionally, waking consciousness is also required for the transition to/from jspace, because populated low-passage tubes don't do the trick.

It's one more thing beyond the 100D limit that makes discovering/testing a jump drive so difficult. Who get's to be the first one to ride that crazy new device? The one that looks to any 'sane' engineer like it's just going to blow up the ship. And in fact, every time it's been tried unmanned, it just vanishes in a burst of light, never to be seen again. Combined with the 100D limit, it makes discovering Jump Drive almost a lucky accident.

 

[Wil Mireu]

On the other hand there was that whole Virus, The New Era with 'vampire fleets' or otherwise robot controlled ships. Although Virus itself was a living organism, just one based on silicone, and murder, so I guess that 'other hand' is more like a foot in the mouth.

Virus is sentient, therefore fullfils the requirement for having a 'sentient being' onboard. AFAIK the 'jump ships need a crew' thing was to explain why X-boats need a pilot.

 

[High Orbit Drifter]

On the other hand there was that whole Virus, The New Era with 'vampire fleets' or otherwise robot controlled ships. Although Virus itself was a living organism, just one based on silicone, and murder, so I guess that 'other hand' is more like a foot in the mouth.

Virus is sentient, therefore fullfils the requirement for having a 'sentient being' onboard. AFAIK the 'jump ships need a crew' thing was to explain why X-boats need a pilot.

All well and good, but none of this states robotic ships can't be used in-system. Automated freight, robot patrol ships, factory refinaries that basically eat small asteroids - although I'm sure this last would need a living inspection crew now and again.

mr31337 does bring up a good point in that at least Mongoose Traveller allows for robotic characters. And the old DGP had their proto-Data character, Aybee. I would say sentient AI characters are viable in Classic Traveller, even if they are cutting edge technology, and would make great PCs. They just lack the "life force" (not "soul", this is science) needed to pilot a jump ship.

 

[Lord High Munchkin]

I seem to remember a totally robotic ship in 'IISS Ship Files'... and 2300AD has automated ships.

 

[mr31337]

They just lack the "life force" (not "soul", this is science) needed to pilot a jump ship.

..is there any actual piloting involved in jumping a ship? Surely one doesn't actually control the ship's course when it's in jump space. :shock:

Mongoose rules state there in a divert power roll, which is simply an Edu based Engineer(jump drive) check. I didn't read anything about life force, psionics, souls, a human requirement or exclusion of robots. [CRB p141, "Preparing For Jump"].

Pretty much the entire basis of the 'no robots can execute a jump' theory is because it fouls up the X-Boat economy. People just need to get over that, there are countless other economic short comings in the Third Imperium. Blame it on trade unions, blame it on the quirky nobles, blame it on the grognards in the IISS, blame it on tradition, but please don't blame it on dodgy technology simply because the X Boat economy is weak. :wink:

 

[High Orbit Drifter]

They just lack the "life force" (not "soul", this is science) needed to pilot a jump ship.

..is there any actual piloting involved in jumping a ship? Surely one doesn't actually control the ship's course when it's in jump space. :shock:

Mongoose rules state there in a divert power roll, which is simply an Edu based Engineer(jump drive) check. I didn't read anything about life force, psionics, souls, a human requirement or exclusion of robots. [CRB p141, "Preparing For Jump"].

Pretty much the entire basis of the 'no robots can execute a jump' theory is because it fouls up the X-Boat economy. People just need to get over that, there are countless other economic short comings in the Third Imperium. Blame it on trade unions, blame it on the quirky nobles, blame it on the grognards in the IISS, blame it on tradition, but please don't blame it on dodgy technology simply because the X Boat economy is weak. :wink:

I have not seen T5 yet but I thought I heard it connected jump space with psionics in some way. But that was a blurb from the Kickstarter so who knows. Well, someone with T5 I guess...

Of course you could argue that jump just requires sentience. That would allow for robotic pilots as well as the X-Boat system, since it was created before the tech level was achieved to allow sentience.

 

[Infojunky]

I know that jump capable ships must be manned. That is if you ignore that little blurb about jump-torpedos in the Leviathan adventure.

For the record they were legit under the 77 Edition.

 

[Wil Mireu]

All well and good, but none of this states robotic ships can't be used in-system. Automated freight, robot patrol ships, factory refinaries that basically eat small asteroids - although I'm sure this last would need a living inspection crew now and again.

I can't see any reason to prevent anyone from building an in-system robotic ship. We build them all the time here and now (Voyager, Cassini, Curiosity, Opportunity, etc).

 

[Bardicheart]

I can't see any reason to prevent anyone from building an in-system robotic ship. We build them all the time here and now (Voyager, Cassini, Curiosity, Opportunity, etc).

Not to mention the regular HTV resupply missions to the ISS, all of which are unmanned and automated.

HTV-4 Info

List of unmanned missions to ISS

Personally I think the biggest problem with automated ships in Traveller is cultural, apparently Humaniti doesn't particularly trust robots. You'll note that although almost any crew position on a ship (including piloting & astrogation) can be automated with expert system (you'd need to install additional computers to run all this software) so the technology to do it exists. But there seems to be a real bias in the 3I against it. You see a similar bias about robots in general (though more recent publications seem to be softening that).

The core rules (Traveller Core, p146) makes it clear any crew position, from gunner to engineer to pilot can be automated. Based on that I would say it would be possible, if you installed enough computers with the right software to fully automate a ship. However, Tech restrictions will limit you to Intellect/3 and Expert/3 systems (Traveller Core pp92-93) unless you have access to TL16+ software; which is available on certain worlds (i.e. Vincennes, Deneb Sector; Deneb Sector book p34).

However, while I've allowed such highly automated ships in my TU, I've also utilized the apparent bias; having 3I citizens/authorities react with suspicion and even fear of such a ship (even if the captain were a sophont commanding the ship). Generally such ships had trouble attracting passengers (especially high passage) and even cargo (people fearing such a ship might not be reliable). Pirates sometimes thought of such a ship as an easy target (i.e. thinking computers aren't as good as sophonts, no crew / marines to defend the ship, etc.); which generally proved to be a fatal mistake (internal security tended to be lethal). I've also played it that the requirement for a human captain/pilot was a legal requirement in the 3I, not a technological / jump drive requirement. If you have Book 9: Robots (and can get past its flaws), robots are generally a cheaper way of automating a ship, and they can have up to skill level 3 (or pick up Special Supplement 3: Vehicle Upgrade Manual and use the rules for making a vehicle into a robot to automate your starship).

 

[CosmicGamer]

Wish I could find my old, detailed post on this. I don't know which forum I even posted it on.

To sum it up, I discussed the fact that even if it was technically possible that doesn't mean it is allowed.

Some options included
- Average Stellar automation technology may be able to handle what it is programmed for but has not perfected an AI that is as versatile as a crew at handling situations that are not pre programmed.
- Laws based on a not so pleasant past which are designed to ensure that sentient beings are the ones in charge.
- Insurance requires an qualified and accountable crew.
- The hack for your ship has been posted online and now anyone in the universe can take over your ship.

I recall giving one complication based on the laws of robotics
1. A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.
2. A robot must obey the orders given to it by human beings, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.

So automated ships would be an easy target for a pirate or smuggler or other nefarious person.

 

[mr31337]

I can't see any reason to prevent anyone from building an in-system robotic ship. We build them all the time here and now (Voyager, Cassini, Curiosity, Opportunity, etc).

Not to mention the regular HTV resupply missions to the ISS, all of which are unmanned and automated.

HTV-4 Info

List of unmanned missions to ISS

Personally I think the biggest problem with automated ships in Traveller is cultural, apparently Humaniti doesn't particularly trust robots. You'll note that although almost any crew position on a ship (including piloting & astrogation) can be automated with expert system (you'd need to install additional computers to run all this software) so the technology to do it exists. But there seems to be a real bias in the 3I against it. You see a similar bias about robots in general (though more recent publications seem to be softening that).

The core rules (Traveller Core, p146) makes it clear any crew position, from gunner to engineer to pilot can be automated. Based on that I would say it would be possible, if you installed enough computers with the right software to fully automate a ship. However, Tech restrictions will limit you to Intellect/3 and Expert/3 systems (Traveller Core pp92-93) unless you have access to TL16+ software; which is available on certain worlds (i.e. Vincennes, Deneb Sector; Deneb Sector book p34).

However, while I've allowed such highly automated ships in my TU, I've also utilized the apparent bias; having 3I citizens/authorities react with suspicion and even fear of such a ship (even if the captain were a sophont commanding the ship). Generally such ships had trouble attracting passengers (especially high passage) and even cargo (people fearing such a ship might not be reliable). Pirates sometimes thought of such a ship as an easy target (i.e. thinking computers aren't as good as sophonts, no crew / marines to defend the ship, etc.); which generally proved to be a fatal mistake (internal security tended to be lethal). I've also played it that the requirement for a human captain/pilot was a legal requirement in the 3I, not a technological / jump drive requirement. If you have Book 9: Robots (and can get past its flaws), robots are generally a cheaper way of automating a ship, and they can have up to skill level 3 (or pick up Special Supplement 3: Vehicle Upgrade Manual and use the rules for making a vehicle into a robot to automate your starship).

Very this.

Great answer, exactly how I interpret and run the 3I and the Mongoose Rules.

If anybody can quote the aforementioned 5th Edition rules jump restrictions regarding robots I'd very much like to read it ...before I totally disregard it anyway.

 

[dragoner]

I'm probably a bit Banksian on the subject, but ships would be "robotic" by just a standard; even unmanned vehicles have a large amount of ground crew, something that Traveller ships do not. Not to mention, most of the tasks: piloting, sensors, gunnery, etc. humans can't really do. Jumping is a trick too, as our solar system is moving, then to jump at another moving target where it will be calculated to be, not where you see it.

The Imperials probably have a law about there must be a crew, and Imperial ships, might be sentient as others, but lack personality programs; most likely due to Vilani influence.

 

[Condottiere]

We've got suicide drones.

The general paranoia would be equipping vehicles as either delivery vehicles with explosive payloads or as the actual instrument.

Jump could probably be automated, but would you buy a ticket for a seat on a Ryanair flight if you knew that not only were pay toilets onboard, but that in the latest cost cutting measure the plane would be flown by robot pilot?

 

[High Orbit Drifter]

Wish I could find my old, detailed post on this. I don't know which forum I even posted it on.

To sum it up, I discussed the fact that even if it was technically possible that doesn't mean it is allowed.

Some options included
- Average Stellar automation technology may be able to handle what it is programmed for but has not perfected an AI that is as versatile as a crew at handling situations that are not pre programmed.
- Laws based on a not so pleasant past which are designed to ensure that sentient beings are the ones in charge.
- Insurance requires an qualified and accountable crew.
- The hack for your ship has been posted online and now anyone in the universe can take over your ship.

I recall giving one complication based on the laws of robotics
1. A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.
2. A robot must obey the orders given to it by human beings, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.

So automated ships would be an easy target for a pirate or smuggler or other nefarious person.

I hadn't thought about this; insurance and hacking. There is no technical reason not to have robotic ships IF you can guarentee to the insurance company that you are hack proof.

So that would put a crimp in my plans for automated freight. Barges and other such low cost items should be ok - just dump them in a transfer orbit, monitored, with human crewed tug boats on either end of the run. Or linear accelerator catapults launching water or fuel or bulk grain into orbit. But anything like people or ships that can fly around and be stolen, thats another story.

And if jump requires sentience, for some reason, the X-boat system is still not in any great danger. Why build a costly AI android to man an X-boat when you can probably get some poor first term Scout to sit in the tin can with your mail? Of course that brings up why someone built an AI just to let it loose as a PC to run around and get into trouble?

 

[phavoc]

I think it really comes down to cultural reasons. Drones exist, so there is that. But drones are designed for short-range work (at least the existing designs). There's nothing to say that you could not necessarily have a drone with an endurance of months that goes out and does it's mission.

Hell, today we have 'drones' of sorts with our robotic space probes. So tech-wise there should not be a limitation. Therefore it's gotta be a cultural reason. Once a ship hits jumpspace there is nothing for a pilot to do, except wait for re-emergence. So you'd think that robotic mail ships or X-boats would be the norm. Why put a pilot onboard a ship that can't even run away or defend itself?

I'm sure there's not much mention of it in the materials since the game is meant to be played with living characters. Sure, there's the capability of having an android or sentient AI, but for the most part it does nothing for an RPG. I don't see any tech reason why you could not have robotic craft if you wanted. It's not a violation of the stated rules, it's just not done.

 

[Hopeless]

Technically current airplanes have a limited form of this or auto-pilot and I was more scared at the possibility that like Gene Roddenberry's Andromeda there's a machine entity that uses biological spare parts specifically to allow it to travel through slipstream.

I was also thinking about a drone craft sort of a smart very long range exploration satellite with a crude form of AI but something on the level of the Andromeda Ascendant?

What TL do you think that is?

 

[Lord High Munchkin]

I don't suppose anyone who has 'IISS Ship Files' could post the name of that 3I robot, jump transport?