REVISED: Current PL, Points or Diff PL?

[emperorpenguin]

We are commenting on what we HEAR... not what we KNOW.

so you are commenting on rumour :wink:

Than perhaps formula's are flawed? I'm talking about ratios.

ratios? :?

Than how do we end up with ships like the Explorer (which you have to convince people to use) or the Olympus Gunship (bet some people didn't even know it existed) or the Avenger carrier (which is rarely used)?

because of poor playtesting IMO. The Explorer I believe shouldn't even be in the EA military fleet, it should be scenario-specific/civilian. As I keep saying just because a ship isn't balanced doesn't mean the PL system is wrong!

I'm not saying look at them in isolation. I'm saying look at them in pairs. Create a ratio and work from there.

you cannot balance ships just by comparing two together. How do you balance a force multiplier such as a scout in that case?

 

[tneva82]

Than how do we end up with ships like the Explorer (which you have to convince people to use) or the Olympus Gunship (bet some people didn't even know it existed) or the Avenger carrier (which is rarely used)?

Same way under/over pointed ships come to say BFG...

GW only got now around swapping points for Retribution and Emperor BB despite Emperor obviously being better choise. Point cost system at it's finest...

I'm not saying look at them in isolation. I'm saying look at them in pairs. Create a ratio and work from there.

Pairs? Too small. Look entire fleet.

 

[Abraxas]

We are commenting on what we HEAR... not what we KNOW.

so you are commenting on rumour :wink:

Yes.

Than perhaps formula's are flawed? I'm talking about ratios.

ratios? :?

Comparing one ship (and all it's aspects) to another.

Than how do we end up with ships like the Explorer (which you have to convince people to use) or the Olympus Gunship (bet some people didn't even know it existed) or the Avenger carrier (which is rarely used)?

because of poor playtesting IMO. The Explorer I believe shouldn't even be in the EA military fleet, it should be scenario-specific/civilian. As I keep saying just because a ship isn't balanced doesn't mean the PL system is wrong!

What do you think CREATES the imbalance?

The PL system.

I'm not saying look at them in isolation. I'm saying look at them in pairs. Create a ratio and work from there.

you cannot balance ships just by comparing two together. How do you balance a force multiplier such as a scout in that case?

Compare 2 ships. Grab another ship and compare it to one of the ships you picked before. Than compare it to the other. Play with stat-lines as you see fit to get a basic equivilance... and than grab another ship and compare it to the ships you have already done.

When your done, clear fractions or decimal places and you have a points system.

Hard work? Yeah, I'm not saying it isn't. Your talking about a massive conversion here... but I think future aditions to the game will be easier to include and any mistakes in the ratioing process can be fixed.

Now, before someone tells me that the PL system is a giant ratio already, let me ask you this:

Would you rather have 2 Prefects or one Teretius?

Than how do we end up with ships like the Explorer (which you have to convince people to use) or the Olympus Gunship (bet some people didn't even know it existed) or the Avenger carrier (which is rarely used)?

Same way under/over pointed ships come to say BFG...

GW only got now around swapping points for Retribution and Emperor BB despite Emperor obviously being better choise. Point cost system at it's finest...

That is an example of a failure in the system which can EASILY be fixed by reversing the values.

I'm not saying look at them in isolation. I'm saying look at them in pairs. Create a ratio and work from there.

Pairs? Too small. Look entire fleet.

Which is why after you have compared 2 ships... you move onto another... and then another... and then another.

By the end the entire fleet is litteraly rworked into the cost of each particular ship.

 

[emperorpenguin]

so you are commenting on rumour :wink:

Yes..

okay...............

What do you think CREATES the imbalance?

The PL system.

No as I said already poor testing created the imbalance. You are so fixed on this crusade that it is pointless talking to you! You don't listen to what anyone is saying!

Compare 2 ships. Grab another ship and compare it to one of the ships you picked before. Than compare it to the other. Play with stat-lines as you see fit to get a basic equivilance... and than grab another ship and compare it to the ships you have already done
When your done, clear fractions or decimal places and you have a points system..

you think playtesting works/should work like that!? :roll: Ships work in fleets not one on one duels!

Which is why after you have compared 2 ships... you move onto another... and then another... and then another.

By the end the entire fleet is litteraly rworked into the cost of each particular ship.

if you think that works.....

 

[EvilBob]

I think the PL system is great, true some ships don't see the light of day but that can be changed.

The main reason I like the PL level is that it makes fleet selection easy. BFG used to annoy me because it would take ages to play a game, with the PL the whole process is speed up and you can get a fleet on the table pretty quickly.

 

[Celisasu]

I also frequently hear complaints about Dark Elves and to a lesser degree I hear whines about Vampire Counts.

Of course I'm currently trying to assemble an Orc&Goblin army based on all the wackiest units I can find(Squigs, Giants, Doom Divers, Snotling Pump Wagons, etc) so you can guess how important a powerful army is to me. :lol:

 

[Da Boss]

Cant think of a game I have played where someone didn't try abuse the system.................

 

[lastbesthope]

because of poor playtesting IMO. The Explorer I believe shouldn't even be in the EA military fleet, it should be scenario-specific/civilian.

Well that's something you'd have to take up with JMS, he put it in the EA fleet after all :lol:

LBH

 

[Abraxas]

What do you think CREATES the imbalance?

The PL system.

No as I said already poor testing created the imbalance. You are so fixed on this crusade that it is pointless talking to you! You don't listen to what anyone is saying!

I don't think I am being wholy unreasonable and have admitted that this "crusade" is all for nought. I'm not gonna change anything because the PL system will never be removed. I have said that and I have accepted that... but if someone starts a topic like this I'm gonna give my opinion. That's what people DO on forums.

I'm not unreasonable because I don't listen. I'm unreasonable to you because we don't agree.

The reason imbalance has a chance to exist is because with in each PL (never mind the whole fleet) you have good ships and you have bad ships. As long as this polarization exists (who knows, MP may fix everything in 2e, but I don't KNOW that yet) the PL system will be unbalanced.

Compare 2 ships. Grab another ship and compare it to one of the ships you picked before. Than compare it to the other. Play with stat-lines as you see fit to get a basic equivilance... and than grab another ship and compare it to the ships you have already done
When your done, clear fractions or decimal places and you have a points system..

you think playtesting works/should work like that!? :roll: Ships work in fleets not one on one duels!

If you refuse to read what I write than this entire discussion is pointless.

You compare each ship (each and every ship) to each and every other ship in the fleet. This way the end result is a fleet of units who's cost is based on it's relation to every ship in the fleet and NOT just to each ship in it's PL.

Keep in mind we haven't even discussed the problems when you traverse the different PLs. After all, isn't it true that in most cases 2 smaller ships is better than 1 big one?

Which is why after you have compared 2 ships... you move onto another... and then another... and then another.

By the end the entire fleet is litteraly rworked into the cost of each particular ship.

if you think that works.....

I think it can.

 

[emperorpenguin]

I think the PL system is great, true some ships don't see the light of day but that can be changed.

The main reason I like the PL level is that it makes fleet selection easy. BFG used to annoy me because it would take ages to play a game, with the PL the whole process is speed up and you can get a fleet on the table pretty quickly.

that is indeed one of the great advantages of the PL system. I've still after many months to settle on a 1500pt Eldar army because I keep trying to cram things into the available points.

With ACTA I can choose fleets in minutes

 

[emperorpenguin]

I also frequently hear complaints about Dark Elves and to a lesser degree I hear whines about Vampire Counts.
:

you hear complaints about Dark Elves!? They are one of the most underpowered armies there is along with Tomb Kings. And largely because the writer was too busy with Inquisitor at the time

 

[emperorpenguin]

because of poor playtesting IMO. The Explorer I believe shouldn't even be in the EA military fleet, it should be scenario-specific/civilian.

Well that's something you'd have to take up with JMS, he put it in the EA fleet after all :lol:

LBH

In the game you munchkin! A few of us have tried to convince Matt it shouldn't be a part of the EA fleet

 

[lastbesthope]

But the game is a reflection of the show, seems to me more people complain when the game isn't like the show than when it is ergo, it was in the EA fleet in the show, it's in in the game.

:lol:

LBH

 

[emperorpenguin]

Keep in mind we haven't even discussed the problems when you traverse the different PLs. After all, isn't it true that in most cases 2 smaller ships is better than 1 big one?

Again because of a hangover from IMO poor playtesting in SFOS. There have been fixes put in place in 2nd ed to make bigger ships less vulnerable. However none of this directly relates to points systems!

 

[emperorpenguin]

But the game is a reflection of the show, seems to me more people complain when the game isn't like the show than when it is ergo, it was in the EA fleet in the show, it's in in the game.

:lol:

LBH

but the Explorer isn't a warship, that is the point. Likewise why there is no EF1 or Centauri Royal liner in the respective lists

 

[lastbesthope]

It's crewed by EA military, it carries fighter escort, it's part of the Earthforce fleet in the show. gideon was all for taking on the Drakh in one, and wished he'd helkped Sheridan in the civil war.

In what way not not a warship? :lol:

LBH
(Stirring it to get a break from the cries of "The EFTF Command Squad is too powerful!")

 

[Hash]

I don't think I am being wholy unreasonable and have admitted that this "crusade" is all for nought. I'm not gonna change anything because the PL system will never be removed. I have said that and I have accepted that... but if someone starts a topic like this I'm gonna give my opinion. That's what people DO on forums.

I certainly don't think you're unreasonable - have a strongly held view certainly but no more so than many other posters - chin up, don't feel like no-one is listening with interest in the sidelines.

I agree with much of what you're saying actually...although not completely convinced, mainly because I would tire rather rapidly of the near constant revisions to the costs of certain ships that the system would result in.

I see no reason why a PL system won't work at all as well (it works quite well for most ships), with properly balanced ships/fleets, but must admit, judging from Signs and Portents, Armageddon, SFoS and all the revision of ACTA, I'm really not that confident that 2e will be "perfect" from the get go. This isn't a dig at playtesters btw - after all, there is only so much that one playtest group can achieve and designers have their own ideas about how they want to the game to feel too which may conflict a little with my personal preference on game balance.

 

[Abraxas]

Keep in mind we haven't even discussed the problems when you traverse the different PLs. After all, isn't it true that in most cases 2 smaller ships is better than 1 big one?

Again because of a hangover from IMO poor playtesting in SFOS. There have been fixes put in place in 2nd ed to make bigger ships less vulnerable. However none of this directly relates to points systems!

And none of it can relate to this discussion because I haven't seen anything specific from 2e. I can only go off what you say... and if what you say is true, than I hope I am wrong.

You hear that? I hope I am wrong... but I will reserve this admition until I see the finished product :wink: .


Also, thanks Hash. I'd hate to think I was just wasting cyberspace with all these replies .

 

[emperorpenguin]

It's crewed by EA military, it carries fighter escort, it's part of the Earthforce fleet in the show. gideon was all for taking on the Drakh in one, and wished he'd helkped Sheridan in the civil war.

In what way not not a warship? :lol:

LBH
(Stirring it to get a break from the cries of "The EFTF Command Squad is too powerful!")

yeah and Royal Navy Hydrographic survey ships are part of the fleet but don't fight :wink:

Was Gideon commanding an Explorer at that point?

 

[Celisasu]

I also frequently hear complaints about Dark Elves and to a lesser degree I hear whines about Vampire Counts.
:

you hear complaints about Dark Elves!? They are one of the most underpowered armies there is along with Tomb Kings. And largely because the writer was too busy with Inquisitor at the time

Seeing how I've never played with or against the Dark Elves I can't comment on their power level. But at other boards I've heard lots of whining about them. :lol: The joy of the net, people can whine about anything. Hell, I remember "Narn are broken" back during the era where Narn were losing against almost everyone.

I'm not used to trying to abuse a system as I just want an army/fleet/etc that appeals to me. For Warhammer and 40k that's orcs/orks as I like zany contraptions that are as likely to blast you as your opponent. For ACTA that means the Narn since G'Kar is my favorite character and the G'Quan is my favorite ship appearance wise(yes, that's the whole reason I chose the Narn as my fleet).