REVISED: Current PL, Points or Diff PL?

[Abraxas]

Some people keep talking like PL and points systems are entirely different. They're not. a PL system is a points system, albeit one with a slightly variable index point the way it is implemented in aCTA.

LBH

When you make a whole group of ships the same cost you remove the uniquness of each ship IN the group and eliminate the chance of adressing particular ships WITHOUT changing it's stats (a usually laborous endevour).

I'm sorry, but there is a profound difference between a PL system and a points sytem to me.

Where do you get the idea that MP will make properly balanced ships?

In that case points or priority level...DOESN'T MATTER! Underpointed or overpointed, still broken...If you don't feel they can make balanced ships then it's moot point because both ways system is broken...

Than you change the cost. You never have to worry about stats because you can change the points of a sucky ship making it's COST reflect it's PERFORMANCE.

No. A points system lets you change the points and therefore fix the problem.

You can fix balance problems with PL systems as well. No difference there...

Why you think PL system is somehow frozen where ships can't be balanced? That's laughable idea.

No it's not. If one ship in a PL isn't "balanced", are the rest? You have to change the stats. What if it's now too good? What if it STILL isn't good enough?

It's a lot easier to agree on one number (the cost) than to go and change the stat line.

 

[katadder]

when you said what to spend 20pts on that was upgrades for characters in 40k.
but we are talking space ships, and even gothic i dont think has anything that low. spaceships dont get upgrades apart from in campaigns. if you start down that route then every ship has 100pts of upgrades and you still end up with your odd 20.
my point with the all ships cost around 200pts from gothic is that BFG could be a PL system, as most ships of similar class are so close in points it doesnt make a differance if they were 200 or 2.

 

[lastbesthope]

Some people keep talking like PL and points systems are entirely different. They're not. a PL system is a points system, albeit one with a slightly variable index point the way it is implemented in aCTA.

LBH

When you make a whole group of ships the same cost you remove the uniquness of each ship IN the group and eliminate the chance of adressing particular ships WITHOUT changing it's stats (a usually laborous endevour).

That'ss just the inherent quantisation of the 'points' values in the PL system rather than it not being one. Evry points system is quantised, it's just the effects are more noticeable in ACTA's system.

LBH

 

[Abraxas]

when you said what to spend 20pts on that was upgrades for characters in 40k.
but we are talking space ships, and even gothic i dont think has anything that low. spaceships dont get upgrades apart from in campaigns. if you start down that route then every ship has 100pts of upgrades and you still end up with your odd 20.
my point with the all ships cost around 200pts from gothic is that BFG could be a PL system, as most ships of similar class are so close in points it doesnt make a differance if they were 200 or 2.

Who said the points system is going to be modeled after BFG?

Some people keep talking like PL and points systems are entirely different. They're not. a PL system is a points system, albeit one with a slightly variable index point the way it is implemented in aCTA.

LBH

When you make a whole group of ships the same cost you remove the uniquness of each ship IN the group and eliminate the chance of adressing particular ships WITHOUT changing it's stats (a usually laborous endevour).

That'ss just the inherent quantisation of the 'points' values in the PL system rather than it not being one. Evry points system is quantised, it's just the effects are more noticeable in ACTA's system.

LBH

They cost ABOUT the same because they are ABOUT the same in performance...

But they AREN'T the SAME cost and AREN'T the SAME in performance.

When comparing Prefects and Centaurians, the point becomes clear.


Points costs were never fixed in BFG because they never made a 2e (IIRC). It's been a while since I went to the forum and even longer since I played... but ACtA has something BFG doesn't. It has a company that gets involved with it's players. Because of that a points system CAN work.

 

[tneva82]

Than you change the cost. You never have to worry about stats because you can change the points of a sucky ship making it's COST reflect it's PERFORMANCE.

Point still is: If MP cannot make balanced ships then they cannot point cost them appropriatly. If they can point cost them appropriatly they can make just as balanced ships with PL system...

So can they or can't they? If yes then they can make PL system work just as well with added things PL system provides. If not then neither provides balanced ships.

Simple as that.

 

[Abraxas]

Than you change the cost. You never have to worry about stats because you can change the points of a sucky ship making it's COST reflect it's PERFORMANCE.

Point still is: If MP cannot make balanced ships then they cannot point cost them appropriatly. If they can point cost them appropriatly they can make just as balanced ships with PL system...

Incorrect.

MP just has to worry about tailoring a points cost to a set of stats, regardless of balance (stats-wise) because there isn't a whole group of ships to compare them to.

 

[emperorpenguin]

Where do you get the idea that MP will make properly balanced ships?

:roll: em maybe because I'm playtesting them.....?

The system is broken if the componet parts are broken.

so any points based game must also be broken if the elements are pointed correctly....

Oh for Thor's sake. I don't know what 2e has yet... so bringing it up and using your impression of it is completely ridiculous since NO one (outside of the playtesters) have seen ANYTHING specific.

I bring up 2nd ed because of your ridiculous idea that people will always take more Maximii than Vorchans

No. A points system lets you change the points and therefore fix the problem.

and in the PL system ships can change PL or be altered to balance.

 

[emperorpenguin]

Than you change the cost. You never have to worry about stats because you can change the points of a sucky ship making it's COST reflect it's PERFORMANCE.
.

because GW for example only changes points and never the stats..... :roll:

 

[emperorpenguin]

When comparing Prefects and Centaurians, the point becomes clear..

no the point with those two is one is balanced and the other isn't!
absolutely NOTHING to do with points or priority!

in fact the Centurion/Prefect problem has been addressed and will not occur in 2nd ed!

 

[emperorpenguin]

Incorrect.

MP just has to worry about tailoring a points cost to a set of stats, regardless of balance (stats-wise) because there isn't a whole group of ships to compare them to.

no he is completely correct

There is no formula to assign points, it is based on balance!

 

[Abraxas]

Where do you get the idea that MP will make properly balanced ships?

:roll: em maybe because I'm playtesting them.....?

We'll wait till the final product.

The system is broken if the componet parts are broken.

so any points based game must also be broken if the elements are pointed correctly....

But at least the ONLY thing you have to change is the points cost... and not the stats.

Oh for Thor's sake. I don't know what 2e has yet... so bringing it up and using your impression of it is completely ridiculous since NO one (outside of the playtesters) have seen ANYTHING specific.

I bring up 2nd ed because of your ridiculous idea that people will always take more Maximii than Vorchans

Again, I'll wait for the final product.

No. A points system lets you change the points and therefore fix the problem.

and in the PL system ships can change PL or be altered to balance.

But you have to change the STATS... something that is much harder to get people to agree on because of all the variables (AD, weapon layout, damage, crew, hull score, speed, abilities... etc.).

With a points system the only thing you have to worry about is the points cost. A single number.

Than you change the cost. You never have to worry about stats because you can change the points of a sucky ship making it's COST reflect it's PERFORMANCE.
.

because GW for example only changes points and never the stats..... :roll:

I can't be responcible for the way GW ran their company. If they wanted to change stats AND points costs at the same time, that is their perogative.

Since the stats will most likely stay about the same for ships in ACtA, all we have to worry about is the cost.

2e will be a major change in the way ACtA is played... and will better reflect the sentiments of the players and fans. GW never cared as long as they sold more Terminators and Demon Princes.

This involvement by the creators of ACtA will make the points system more succssful than any other game.

When comparing Prefects and Centaurians, the point becomes clear..

no the point with those two is one is balanced and the other isn't!
absolutely NOTHING to do with points or priority!

in fact the Centurion/Prefect problem has been addressed and will not occur in 2nd ed!

Untill I see 2e I can't comment on it. I'd appreciate you do the same.

You know what you know because you are playtesting. All I have to work with is the current system and what we HEAR (not KNOW) about 2e.

Incorrect.

MP just has to worry about tailoring a points cost to a set of stats, regardless of balance (stats-wise) because there isn't a whole group of ships to compare them to.

no he is completely correct

There is no formula to assign points, it is based on balance!

Which is the problem with a PL system.

A points system relies on the balance of points.

A PL system relies on the balance of stats.

Now tell me which one is easier to play around with and get players to agree on?

 

[tneva82]

MP just has to worry about tailoring a points cost to a set of stats, regardless of balance (stats-wise) because there isn't a whole group of ships to compare them to.

Worst mistake you can make with point system is to look ONLY at ship...

Ships work in tandem. You look at only ship and you'll get broken ship 100% quaranteed.

 

[emperorpenguin]

I can't be responcible for the way GW ran their company. If they wanted to change stats AND points costs at the same time, that is their perogative.

but you are SO convinced that only points will ever change, my experience of dozens of games over the years tells me that isn't true

2e will be a major change in the way ACtA is played... and will better reflect the sentiments of the players and fans. GW never cared as long as they sold more Terminators and Demon Princes.

Rubbish. One of my mates was a GW games designer and another is still high up in the company, they don't just think "money" those guys care about their game as much as Mongoose do theirs.

 

[Abraxas]

MP just has to worry about tailoring a points cost to a set of stats, regardless of balance (stats-wise) because there isn't a whole group of ships to compare them to.

Worst mistake you can make with point system is to look ONLY at ship...

Ships work in tandem. You look at only ship and you'll get broken ship 100% quaranteed.

I'm saying set a base score for a realatively big ship... Omega, Primus, etc... and ratio out the points of other ships.

It'll take a dedicated amount of time (which is why I KNOW MP will never switch over), but if it was to be completed, future changes would be more simple.

I can't be responcible for the way GW ran their company. If they wanted to change stats AND points costs at the same time, that is their perogative.

but you are SO convinced that only points will ever change, my experience of dozens of games over the years tells me that isn't true

Than perhaps they did it wrong...

2e will be a major change in the way ACtA is played... and will better reflect the sentiments of the players and fans. GW never cared as long as they sold more Terminators and Demon Princes.

Rubbish. One of my mates was a GW games designer and another is still high up in the company, they don't just think "money" those guys care about their game as much as Mongoose do theirs.

They got a funny way of showing it.

I'm not alone in my sentiments toward GW. After all, it isn't I that coined the term "Evil Empire".

 

[emperorpenguin]

Untill I see 2e I can't comment on it. I'd appreciate you do the same.

but you ARE commenting on it! :roll: (where is the bangs head on desk smiley?)

Which is the problem with a PL system.

A points system relies on the balance of points.

A PL system relies on the balance of stats.

Now tell me which one is easier to play around with and get players to agree on?

Jumping Jesus, GW's points system doesn't work based on a formula, it is the same as Mongoose's ie playtesting. Full Thrust is the only formula version I know of and that is flawed too

 

[emperorpenguin]

I'm saying set a base score for a realatively big ship... Omega, Primus, etc... and ratio out the points of other ships.

which is precisely what Mongoose do! The Hyperion at Raid is THE base ship

They got a funny way of showing it.

I'm not alone in my sentiments toward GW. After all, it isn't I that coined the term "Evil Empire".

yes of course everyone in GW just thinks of their share options and killing babies, no one cares about the games.... :roll:

and Ronald Reagan coined the phrase about the USSR :wink:

 

[tneva82]

I'm saying set a base score for a realatively big ship... Omega, Primus, etc... and ratio out the points of other ships.

You still have to look at ALL the ships together before assigning point values...

You can't look at the ships in isolation...Atleast if you want any semblance of balance.

 

[Celisasu]

A strict formula will never work because sometimes you'll just find that some stat or another gets either overpriced or underpriced. That's why you playtest.

But on points/PL, basically Abraxas is saying that under the PL point system you have to rework the entire statline of a ship to bring it in balance because it has to specifically match one of six(or seven if you count Ancient) values. In a points system you lower or raise the points until players have to think about whether they want the ship rather than it being a no brainer(like the Tertius is for purchasing or the Haven is for avoiding). It's easier than fitting over a hundred ships into seven point values.

On the whole money grubbing thing, both Mongoose and Games Workshop are out to get money. They're companies and they need money. Some members of both are probably just in it for the cash, other members are in it both for cash and because they enjoy gaming. I imagine that's true of any gaming company. Companies do tend to attract people who like their work so gaming companies probably have quite a few people who do enjoy gaming, even the Evil Empire.

Speaking of the Evil Empire, I tend to hear three complaints about it. One is horrible imbalance in 40k(I hear about it to a lesser degree about Warhammer, but seeing how I've heard of at least seven different races being "broken" for Warhammer I have my doubts there), one is about the price of miniatures, and one is that they don't listen to their customers.

The last complaint is extremely valid. No company should ignore it's customer base. The first complaint is valid to a degree but with the caveat that can anyone name a truely balanced wargame out there(I mean we're always debating the balance of ACTA) that doesn't achieve balance by just having every army have the exact same units? They're pretty damn rare. The middle one? Not so valid. The prices of their minis are pretty much industry norm from what I've seen. Combined with generally high quality I've found that GW miniatures tend to be at least fairly priced and sometimes they're a good deal(If I recall a unit of 25 archers for LotR is only $30).

 

[emperorpenguin]

In a points system you lower or raise the points until players have to think about whether they want the ship rather than it being a no brainer(like the Tertius is for purchasing or the Haven is for avoiding). It's easier than fitting over a hundred ships into seven point values.

Speaking of the Evil Empire, I tend to hear three complaints about it. One is horrible imbalance in 40k(I hear about it to a lesser degree about Warhammer, but seeing how I've heard of at least seven different races being "broken" for Warhammer I have my doubts there), one is about the price of miniatures, and one is that they don't listen to their customers.

The problem with say the Tertius is simply that you get something great (plasma accelerators) for almost no drawback. If the plus was cancelled by an equal minus there would be no problem, it would be an alternative to the Primus and no need for a ship worth say 20pts more which might only buy you some fighters. Again it comes down to adequate playtesting and balancing not points vs PLs.

I find 40K gets more of a slagging (Warhammer players can be snobbish about the fantasy game being better) but Warhammer Fantasy is the more broken game with severe army balance issues. Look at all the tournaments and the top places are always Wood elves/skaven/bretonnians/lizardmen

 

[Abraxas]

Untill I see 2e I can't comment on it. I'd appreciate you do the same.

but you ARE commenting on it! :roll: (where is the bangs head on desk smiley?)

We are commenting on what we HEAR... not what we KNOW.

When you find that "bangs head on desk" smiley, tell me...

Which is the problem with a PL system.

A points system relies on the balance of points.

A PL system relies on the balance of stats.

Now tell me which one is easier to play around with and get players to agree on?

Jumping Jesus, GW's points system doesn't work based on a formula, it is the same as Mongoose's ie playtesting. Full Thrust is the only formula version I know of and that is flawed too

Than perhaps formula's are flawed? I'm talking about ratios.

I'm saying set a base score for a realatively big ship... Omega, Primus, etc... and ratio out the points of other ships.

which is precisely what Mongoose do! The Hyperion at Raid is THE base ship

Than how do we end up with ships like the Explorer (which you have to convince people to use) or the Olympus Gunship (bet some people didn't even know it existed) or the Avenger carrier (which is rarely used)?

They got a funny way of showing it.

I'm not alone in my sentiments toward GW. After all, it isn't I that coined the term "Evil Empire".

yes of course everyone in GW just thinks of their share options and killing babies, no one cares about the games.... :roll:

and Ronald Reagan coined the phrase about the USSR :wink:

I didn't say they liked killing babies... but I am sure some enjoy it as a past time :wink: .

I'm saying set a base score for a realatively big ship... Omega, Primus, etc... and ratio out the points of other ships.

You still have to look at ALL the ships together before assigning point values...

You can't look at the ships in isolation...Atleast if you want any semblance of balance.

I'm not saying look at them in isolation. I'm saying look at them in pairs. Create a ratio and work from there.

Tailor each cost to each ship and DON'T group a whole bunch together. If ships end up with a similar cost, it is because they have the same ratio... NOT because they are all considered "Raid ships".

But on points/PL, basically Abraxas is saying that under the PL point system you have to rework the entire statline of a ship to bring it in balance because it has to specifically match one of six(or seven if you count Ancient) values. In a points system you lower or raise the points until players have to think about whether they want the ship rather than it being a no brainer(like the Tertius is for purchasing or the Haven is for avoiding). It's easier than fitting over a hundred ships into seven point values.

EXACTLY! Thank you. Sometimes I rush and I fail to make my points clear.

I was already late for a class as I was typing these responces so I couldn't think about them to completion most times.

I'm not saying you agree, but I am glad you at least understand what I meant with all my replies.





Look, I'm fighting a losing battle. MP won't change it, so my opinion will always be trumped by that simple fact. I lose by default. Sorry to have wasted all this time...