Request: Make Capital Ship Software Different

[ErinPalette]

I realize that the software chapter hasn't come out yet, so I'm making a request in the hopes that it gets to the writers in time:

Given that there is a huge difference between starship computers and capital ship computer cores, I'd like to see a corresponding difference in capital ship software.

I mean, Fire Control/5 is pretty meaningless to a ship with over 100 turrets, and the processing power of a capship core ought to do more than evade 3 times a round.

 

[AndrewW]

I realize that the software chapter hasn't come out yet, so I'm making a request in the hopes that it gets to the writers in time:

Still plenty of time for things to change. Ships software hasn't even been written yet.

 

[ErinPalette]

My timing was excellent, then.

 

[phavoc]

The ship computer cores should be different as well. You don't need capital-ship class processing power on a 1,000 ton ship, but you want (and should have) all the same capabilities - just not at the same pricing.

 

[ErinPalette]

The ship computer cores should be different as well. You don't need capital-ship class processing power on a 1,000 ton ship, but you want (and should have) all the same capabilities - just not at the same pricing.

Yep. Around the time you have 10 turrets, FC/5 is pretty useless.

Of course, I've always thought that capital ships started a bit early in tonnage, as there are some escorts which are "regular" ships (Chrysanthemum) and some escorts which are capships (PF Sloane).

I think there ought to be an intermediate stage:
100-900 dtons is "adventurer" scale
1,000-9,000 dtons is "escort" scale
10,000+ dtons is "capital" scale

With each scale having its own weapons, computers, etc. Sort of like how damage in the first version of 2e was "personal", "vehicle" or "starship", which is something I really liked and am sad to see go.

 

[Condottiere]

You could have an integrated fire control system, combined with sensors and communications, so that all targets can be engaged, and everyone gets an equal share of the fire power.

Otherwise, there may be blindspots in your coverage, and everyone is shooting at the same target without coordination.

 

[ErinPalette]

You mean like the Fire Control Grid and Point Defence Network in Trillion Credit Squadron?

 

[Nerhesi]

Computer software is just that - software...

Which means, either assume firecontrol is inherent, and the distributed +5 is just "extra umph" - otherwise you couldn't hit stuff at that range/speed anyways..

OR

Have fire control software reduced in effectiveness, but apply it to EVERY shot.

However, do not magically make "capital ship fire control" superior and only available to them. If I am willing to pay magnitudes more, my 700-ton adventure class ship should be allowed ANY kind of software available.

 

[Condottiere]

There's the software solution, a dedicated hardware solution, or a combination.

What else are you going to using all that spare computer capacity for? World of Warcraft?

 

[phavoc]

There's the software solution, a dedicated hardware solution, or a combination.

What else are you going to using all that spare computer capacity for? World of Warcraft?

Bitcoin mining?

 

[Condottiere]

That might work for the Imperium Credit.

Turns out the algorithm running through their computer is actually part of a huge surveillance network.

 

[ErinPalette]

Computer software is just that - software...

Software, yes, but subject to memory and CPU restrictions on the hardware. Good luck running Windows 7 on 1990s era computers -- you simply don't have the processor speed or storage capacity.

However, do not magically make "capital ship fire control" superior and only available to them. If I am willing to pay magnitudes more, my 700-ton adventure class ship should be allowed ANY kind of software available.

This runs counter to Classic Traveller, from which Mongoose 1e is derived. Unless there is major revision to how things are done in 2e, it's simply not possible to run Fire Control/5 on a Model/3 computer.

What I am postulating is that there are Capital Ship programs which take advantage of the massive storage capacity and parallel processing capability of Capital Ship Cores.

TL;DR Bigger, better hardware ought to be able to use faster, more efficient programs optimized for that hardware.

 

[Nerhesi]

Computer software is just that - software...

Software, yes, but subject to memory and CPU restrictions on the hardware. Good luck running Windows 7 on 1990s era computers -- you simply don't have the processor speed or storage capacity.

What I am postulating is that there are Capital Ship programs which take advantage of the massive storage capacity and parallel processing capability of Capital Ship Cores.

TL;DR Bigger, better hardware ought to be able to use faster, more efficient programs optimized for that hardware.

All of which shouldn't be bigger than a desk, or perhaps a closet.

I'm not arguing that you shouldn't have varying levels of Computer/X and Software/Y. I'm just saying, your threshold should be strictly COST, and not size.

Size is a thing of the past. It is super silly to say:

Well - with my basic bridge running Computer/7 Rating 35, I can use firecontrol software to give 5 turrets a 10% improved chance to hit, or one turret like 70%... But if I wanted to give a bonus to 10 turrets, there be magic afoot! Because I immediately need a computer thats TONS bigger, and a massive bridge!

Nonononono - thats actually even completely opposed to realism.

So if having firecontrol apply as a blanket to all turrets/attacks (example, Firecontrol/1 +1 to all attacks), with maybe a lower max (so +3 max or so), is somehow against traveller canon... then we need to make sure there is no special firecontrol available for just capital ships. With the exception of some fleet-coordination massive barrage coordination blah etc..

But that legacy max +1 to 5 turrets remains so, then it should be the max for all capital ships too. Otherwise, make it available to any ship willing to pay...

 

[ErinPalette]

All of which shouldn't be bigger than a desk, or perhaps a closet.

I rather assumed that capital ships had multiple mainframes of supercomputers, so more like... several closets. But not tons and tons, no.

But I think I have discerned the source of my confusion. Previously you said

If I am willing to pay magnitudes more, my 700-ton adventure class ship should be allowed ANY kind of software available.

and I interpreted that to mean "So long as I can purchase it, I should be able to run any program I like on my ship's computer."

However, what I now think you meant to say was "So long as I have the money, I ought to be able to install a capital ship computer inside my 700-dton adventure class ship." If this is what you actually meant, then I'm fine with it; if you're willing to pay tens of millions of credits for a computer, then godspeed, although there does to need to be some adaptation made, as a Core/3 costs 12Mcr and has a rating of 40 -- a much better investment than 30MCr Model/7 with a rating of 35.

But if that's not what you're saying then I have failed to grasp your point.

 

[Nerhesi]

Nope - we're on the same page now

Redundancy - multiple rooms, sure
Processing power - measure by cost, not the size of the beast (well, size is included in bridge and so on).

What I didn't like was how I could only get a rating 100 capital computer in a cruiser, but for some reason, there was no way to put it in a 300 ton ship for example!

 

[Infojunky]

My vote is to Ditch Software for Capital ships. It is a fiddly bit of detail that doesn't add to game play.

Heck that is my feeling about all the Starship software rules....

 

[Libris]

I've never used the software rules as written in any Traveller game. My assumption has always been that the software overhead is included in the equipment; if you've got a J-4 drive then it's got a dedicated jump computer/processor. Similarly, the gun/turret spinal mount has enough computer power to tie it into the ships sensors. I treat fire control systems somewhat differently though.

For weapon systems it seems unreasonable for a MCr 10 program to give the same bonus to a multi-billion credit meson gun as it would to a beam laser turret; much like assuming that your ACOG off of your M4 will give a similar result when duct taped onto your Abrams M256. I figure that the cost of a weapon system is based on hardware and firmware/software systems to get 'as good as it gets function' out of the system without spending a bucket load more money. So a fusion gun is dearer than a beam laser not just because the hardware is more expensive but because the computer/electronics solution to get it to work is inherently more complex as well. To get it to perform better is proportional to the cost and each performance increase increases that cost exponentially. It goes into dedicated enhancements to sensors, dedicated profiling hardware, stupidly expensive components and other esoteric bits and bobs.

So, basically I design the ship then add the software/computer package. Want +1 on all your guns it double the weapon cost, +2 quadruple it and so on. The limit? Half the computer rating. For batteries or turrets I use the single weapon cost.

Want a TL15 gunboat; built a basic 400 ton Corsair. Want a state of the art patrol cruiser? Build a similar 400 ton corsair, put in a massive computer and add +4 fire control solution per turret.

 

[ErinPalette]

I'm okay with ditching software for capships, but if we're going that route we might as well just ditch the computer requirements as well.

I mean, if you're building ships that cost tens or hundreds of billions of credits, 100 million for a Core/8 is just pocket change.

 

[Nerhesi]

I'm okay with ditching software for capships, but if we're going that route we might as well just ditch the computer requirements as well.

I mean, if you're building ships that cost tens or hundreds of billions of credits, 100 million for a Core/8 is just pocket change.

Yup - I would be in agreement there. Of course it would be more of a concern for that 300-900 ton adventure class custom ship.. but the navy would probably outfit most of their sector fleet with the best software.

Colonial naval forces.. meh, maybe or maybe not

 

[phavoc]

There's a certain simplicity to dropping computers and basically assigning their capabilities to the systems they interface with. The computer system exists still, but at 0 cost (part of the hull, or the bridge maybe?).

So the issue then becomes one not of basic operations, but how does a PC or NPC upgrade their ship to be better than the average joe starship? We all know PC's tend to min/max characters and their ships. A few things are easy - you want ECM/ECCM? You buy the hardware. You want to engage 5 targets simultaneously with your 5 turrets? Not a problem. You want fries with that? Umm, how about a space burrito instead?