Refits-Traveller

[tytalan]

So there seems to be some confusion over refits according to HG 2022. Under major refits it says “ Major refits cover changes in power plant, manoeuvre or jump drive, as well as changes to spinal mounts or launch facilities (such as launch tubes).” To me that’s pretty clear it costs a lot of time and money but you can change these things how you want. The problem comes under the minor refit category

Under minor refit it says this “ Minor refits are changes to any other components aboard the ship, such as weapon mounts or staterooms.” But it later says this “ Armour and other parts of the ship integral to the hull (such as configuration or reinforced structure) cannot be changed under any refit.” Which should probably be stated elsewhere in the section but it makes this next line confusing by being placed under the minor refit paragraph as is this next line “ Those items covered under a major refit cannot be increased in size but they can be reduced.”

Now the way I read it under a major refit you can increase the size of the of Jump drive, Manuever drive, Power plant, spinal mounts and Launch facilities because your moving bulkheads and restructuring the inside of the hull literally rebuilding the inside of the ship which makes sense the navy does it from time to time and it fits with the cost and time requirements. While under a minor refit you can only decrease the size of these components because you’re not doing major structural changes. But it’s been argued that you can’t increase the size of these components under and refit major or minor but the Hero class far trader is literally a refit of the Beowulf class free trader with larger jump drive. So which is it?

 

[Condottiere]

Outmoded ships may be improved by refitting; obsolete systems are replaced by newer models. All refitting must be done at an A or B starport, and jump-drives may be refitted only at A starports. Refitting involves the complete removal of an old system and the installation of a new one; for instance, if a power plant is refitted, the entire power plant is removed and a new one put in its place. Refitting takes up shipyard capacity equal to the refitting ship's tonnage.

Changes in power plant, maneuver drive, or jump drive are major changes. They cost 1.5 times the amount the new system would cost in a new ship; the time required to install major changes is one fourth the time required to build a new ship (from the construction time table).

Changes in any other ship component are minor changes. They cost 1.1 times the cost of the system in a new ship and take one tenth the time required for new ship construction.

Refitting is subject to the same time modifiers and weekly costs as in the shipbuilding rule. If several ships of a class are being refitted the same way, all ships after the first receive the time benefit. Work may proceed concurrently: if several ship systems are being replaced, the refit takes only the time required for the longest one.

The degree to which a ship may be changed is limited. Power plant, M-drive, J-drive, and spinal mount weapons may not be increased in tonnage. There may be no additional launch facilities built (although they may be removed). Armor and configuration may not be changed. The number and size of weapons bays may not be changed.


Trillion Credit Squadron
1981

 

[tytalan]

Outmoded ships may be improved by refitting; obsolete systems are replaced by newer models. All refitting must be done at an A or B starport, and jump-drives may be refitted only at A starports. Refitting involves the complete removal of an old system and the installation of a new one; for instance, if a power plant is refitted, the entire power plant is removed and a new one put in its place. Refitting takes up shipyard capacity equal to the refitting ship's tonnage.

Changes in power plant, maneuver drive, or jump drive are major changes. They cost 1.5 times the amount the new system would cost in a new ship; the time required to install major changes is one fourth the time required to build a new ship (from the construction time table).

Changes in any other ship component are minor changes. They cost 1.1 times the cost of the system in a new ship and take one tenth the time required for new ship construction.

Refitting is subject to the same time modifiers and weekly costs as in the shipbuilding rule. If several ships of a class are being refitted the same way, all ships after the first receive the time benefit. Work may proceed concurrently: if several ship systems are being replaced, the refit takes only the time required for the longest one.

The degree to which a ship may be changed is limited. Power plant, M-drive, J-drive, and spinal mount weapons may not be increased in tonnage. There may be no additional launch facilities built (although they may be removed). Armor and configuration may not be changed. The number and size of weapons bays may not be changed.


1981

Not this edition of Traveller

 

[Terry Mixon]

Not this edition of Traveller

Indeed, this edition of Traveller. The fact you want to change the plain meaning of the rule doesn’t change that. The section clearly says items covered by a major refit cannot be increased in size. Do as you like in your Traveller Universe, but recognize you are changing things away from the rules as written.

Here is the quote that continues to say the opposite of what you claim. It is clear and irrefutable. The quote from a previous edition makes clear the history of this part of the process.

Yes, Mongoose violates its own rule. Shocking, I know, but not relevant to the conversation.

“Those items covered under a major refit cannot be increased in size but they can be reduced.”

 

[Condottiere]

Costs and limitations may, or may not, make cents.

In real life, we can increase the size of planes and ships by adding in one, or more hull plugs.

As long as we take into account the centre of gravity, we could increase the size of the engines.

However, this is a rule that's has been in place since almost the start of the game, when upgrading spacecraft at scale was considered.

 

[MongooseBella]

Having not really followed this discussion but keeping an eye on the language, make sure we're all being friendly, etc, please

 

[MongooseBella]

That said @paltrysum for HG edits (Chris can you look at this please when you get to this )

 

[wintertraveller]

Not this edition of Traveller

The thing is that these 1981 TCS rules are nearly identical to our 2e HG Update-2024 which is amazing continuity. The 1981 rules are slightly more restrictive than our current rules in only two aspects:

1. There may be no additional launch facilities built (although they may be removed)
2. The number and size of weapons bays may not be changed

However, these rules were present in TCS for the fleet campaign games. To my memory, at no point in classic Traveler history were these rules-as-written expressly applied to all ships such as the adventure class ships in the regular Traveller RPG games. For the most part, these TCS games were mostly wargaming at conventions and not so much regular RPG games.

However, the folks that I played with in the mid-eighties all used these rules in their regular games anyway. For us, these classic Traveller games were like the old game, Car Wars, but with space ships... Get a ship, defeat some other ships, get some loot, upgrade your ship, defeat some more ships, buy a bigger ship, adventures ensue, rinse and repeat. This lasted until MegaTraveller blew everything up, or we tried other RPGs. The upgrade your ship aspect with these rules worked well.

My preference is to see the continuty with these past rules maintained while still providing an ability to further hot-rod customize unique ships (as opposed to whole fleets or whole classes of ships).

I suggest that this hot-rod feature not be allowed by all shipyards but only the chop shops or research yards that will hype your ride at a cost involving adventures. Finding a capable shipyard with ship-artisans willing and capable to do the custom work would take some role play and some skill checks.

Thereafter your ship would be a quirky custom job that might draw attention from authorities: perhaps requiring inspection, new ship papers/registration, and updated transponders with the ship's new ship type code and other attributes. Maybe the ship's code now has the type "Z" qualifier noting it as experimental. This general roleplay approach could explain most/all of the various Mongoose 2e published retrofitted ships as one-offs or experimental versions that have been effectively adopted into the mainstream as a variant.

 

[paltrysum]

For High Guard feedback, please repost to https://forum.mongoosepublishing.com/threads/travellers-needed-high-guard-updates.125784/.

Thank you.

 

[Condottiere]

I tend to view it like Washington Treaty warships.

You could rip out the guts, but it costs so much, that you only do it because you have no other choice.

And major components, you'd have to recalculate the centre of gravity.

 

[tytalan]

For all the arguments I would expect to see support for this https://forum.mongoosepublishing.co...needed-high-guard-updates.125784/post-1016376