Really starting to bug me about Scholars

[VincentDarlage]

It appeares that I'm the only one on this board who likes Defensive Blast anymore. I wonder when that happened? :?

You aren't the only one. Count me among you.

 

[thulsa]

It appeares that I'm the only one on this board who likes Defensive Blast anymore. I wonder when that happened?

What's wrong with defensive blast in the core rules? Primarily two things:

1) It's way too flashy for the swords and sorcery genre. There's a reason fireball isn't among the scholar's spells (and thank the Great Old Ones for that!).

2) It can be abused by combining it with Opportunistic Sacrifice, turning it into an offensive power instead of a purely defensive tactic. The scholar becomes akin to a suicide bomber (and that breaks the mood of the game, too).

Where did this idea come from that scholars have to be soft targets at close range anyway? In all the stories I can think of sorcorers are always seen as fearsome opponents that most people are afraid to even come near.

That's what my fix for defensive blast does... Makes people think twice about coming close and attacking a sorcerer:

http://hyboria.xoth.net/rules/house_rules_conan_ogl.htm

- thulsa

 

[argo]

1) It's way too flashy for the swords and sorcery genre. There's a reason fireball isn't among the scholar's spells (and thank the Great Old Ones for that!).

But why does it have to be a fireball? All the rules say about DB is that "Sorcerers generally have plenty of close-range magic ideal for counter-attacks, so that any who attempt to bring death to them will risk destruction themsleves"

Nothing about that says "fireball". The only thing about DB that even suggests a fireball effect is that the damage is of the fire subtype but it seems that everyone immediately makes it a fireball.

How about "as you rush forward the sorcerer throws out his arms and evil-looking strands of oily black smoke begin roiling out of his sleeves and coiling aobut you. Suddenly one of the strands strikes at your chest and you feel burning hot pain shoot through you. Roll a Fort save."

Or "as the warriors close in about him the man in black robes raises his staff high above his head and with a shout strikes its point into the ground beneath him. With a sound like a thunderclap the ground trembles and cracks spiderweb out from the point of the staff. An unearthly glow is visible eminating from the cracks and you have no doubt that all the powers of Hell are reaching up from the dark pits beneath the earth. As the warriors step on the cracks their feet catch fire, the flames spread quickly up their legs and torsos as though they were made of straw and they fall screaming to the ground trying in vain to put out the flames. As the dark stranger strides camly past the imolated bodies of his enemies the glow in the earth fades leaving behind only scortch marks in the ground as a testament to the power unleashed here."


Or heck, you could even change the damage type from Fire to something else. Maybe Hyperborian witches deal Ice damage, or how about if Khitan wizards wither their enemies with Acid damage? I would rather make a small change like that than start tossing out the rules whole cloth.

2) It can be abused by combining it with Opportunistic Sacrifice, turning it into an offensive power instead of a purely defensive tactic. The scholar becomes akin to a suicide bomber (and that breaks the mood of the game, too).

You are quite right about this as well. And any of you who have read my posts on other similar threads know my fix for this as well. Make DB count as a Mighty Spell. Then scholars who try to use it as their main offensive weapon will find themselves quickly making some harsh saves while scholars who only use it occasionally when they have no other choice will not be affected at all.

Its just that my style is to try treading lightly on the rules and making small changes first before I start nerfing things. YMMV


Hope that helps.

 

[Scorpion13]

I may be in the minority here, but I think that even in a setting like Conan, there has to be some flashiness to magic. Its magic, after all. Summoning a demon doesnt have to be all ILM, but still, it does have to have some special effects.

In my games, a Defensive Blast resembles the sorceror being engulfed in ghostly green flame, as if he were standing in the middle of a bonfire.

Magic doesnt have to be like in D&D, but still, it does have to have some zing, IMHO.

And I like the idea of a DB being a Mighty Spell though. It most certainly fits more of the criteria for such a spell. Such a expulsion of pur, eldritch energies shouldnt be used without any repurcussions.

Also, a fort save mechanic should perhaps be worked up for the scholar to save against. Blasting magic out of every pore of your body just CANT be healthy. A human body just wouldnt be able to stand such a strain without burning out.

 

[thulsa]

Nothing about that says "fireball". The only thing about DB that even suggests a fireball effect is that the damage is of the fire subtype but it seems that everyone immediately makes it a fireball.

How about (...snip...).

If you only have NPC scholars, or you have players of scholars that manage that kind of alternative description, that's great. However, a lot of people (including the scholar player in my group) will just look in the rule book and see the mention of the fiery blast, and go with that ("cool, I can blow stuff up!").

Or heck, you could even change the damage type from Fire to something else. Maybe Hyperborian witches deal Ice damage, or how about if Khitan wizards wither their enemies with Acid damage? I would rather make a small change like that than start tossing out the rules whole cloth.

The problem with this is that more creatures are especially vulnerable to fire than to ice or acid, etc. Which typically makes fire the best option (if there is a choice).

You are quite right about this as well. And any of you who have read my posts on other similar threads know my fix for this as well. Make DB count as a Mighty Spell.

I agree that making it a Mighty Spell is a good fix as well. At least it will prevent the Opportunistic Sacrifice combo (although most sorcerers will make the first save, at DC 10, with few problems; but that is their risk to take...).

- thulsa

 

[Mark Dunder]

Of course, any damage done by any means in any RPG are just points taken away or damage type applied to another statistic. It's all special effects. I give you 5 points of damage, but my special effect is a knife. This is all imagination. Everything in the game is role-played. Those that have played the Hero System or similar games, know what is meant by a special effect. Energy Blast - Special Effect - A bolt of lightning from out of the sky.

So why not snakes of smoke? I think that sounds like something out of a Conan story. If you must use DB, make it interesting at least.

Actually, if DB is a basic defense constituting the entire sorcerer's magic power to defend himself, I would think this DB should have a special effect to show the desperate measures the sorcerer is using. Afterall, the little tricks and spells that he has learned over the years of training that got him this far, should be something he would use as a last ditch effort to survive. Maybe the origins of this is something deep within his psyche, something that when totally unleashed, manifests itself as twining pillars of smoke that just happen to have snake heads that strike out at the attacker. Desperation and dispair have caused strange things to happen.

If DB can be used within the spirit of the Hyborian Age, and all the players of a group feel the player has done so when using DB, all is well. If not, you will then need to make modifications like some have suggested here.

Before I would allow DB to be used in my game, I would ask the player how they would use it and what response they would expect. Just as players know what to expect when striking a foe with a sword, so should the sorcerer know exactly what to expect when striking with DB.

 

[thulsa]

Afterall, the little tricks and spells that he has learned over the years of training that got him this far, should be something he would use as a last ditch effort to survive.

I think we all agree that defensive blast should be a last resort (this is stated quite clearly in the rulebook as well). The problem is that the actual rules as written don't support this intention -- mainly by allowing the broken DB + opportunistic sacrifice combo.

You could, of course, change the opportunistic sacrifice feat so that it doesn't work with DB. Use whatever works for you...

- thulsa

 

[quigs]

All in all, I don't mind the rules as is yet. But we'll see what happens when the group runs into some cultists with scholar levels. If they turn into walking firebombs, then I may implement some kind of variant for their ability. Possibly making it a mighty spell, as well as using part of Thulsa's rules, except for the part where they can immediately use the attack against anybody attacking them like an attack of opportunity. That IMO is a bit too powerful. They should have to wait until their turn to use it. This gives the PC's one round to take him out, and if not, then they suffer.

 

[GrimJesta]

I have no problem with DB as long as it isn't used with Opp-Sacrafice. I just like the idea of it being a might spell for flavor reasons, not as a system of checks and balances, so I'll use that House Rule. I don't think the problem is the DB itself, but rather how some Players interpret it as a fireball (which it isn't). RPGs rely on narration, so not everything needs to have a rule attached to it. It's the GM who should determine when and if DB triggers, not the PC... unless that PC shows that he knows how to trigger it for narrative purposes rather than just powergaming.

-=Grim=-

 

[argo]

Nothing about that says "fireball". The only thing about DB that even suggests a fireball effect is that the damage is of the fire subtype but it seems that everyone immediately makes it a fireball.

How about (...snip...).

If you only have NPC scholars, or you have players of scholars that manage that kind of alternative description, that's great. However, a lot of people (including the scholar player in my group) will just look in the rule book and see the mention of the fiery blast, and go with that ("cool, I can blow stuff up!").

So take you scholar aside before the next session and ask him to to come up with a personalized theme for his DB. He doesnt' have to come up with something different each time, just a theme for his DB.

Heck, if you could even find ways to work his theme into the other spells he casts (keep the mechanics, change the flavor) that would be even better.

 

[argo]

It's the GM who should determine when and if DB triggers, not the PC... unless that PC shows that he knows how to trigger it for narrative purposes rather than just powergaming.

-=Grim=-

I think that you should be carefull here. In general its not good when a mechanic is triggered "when the GM says so". Players should have a clear and distinct understanding of how their abilities work. As GM you control the entire game world, the players only get to control their PC's and I believe that you shouldnt' take that control away from them.

At least, I don't like being a player under those conditions. YMMV

Later.

 

[Scorpion13]

I agree.

I have to admit that I was never very comfortable with the idea of directly interferring with the actions my PC's take.

 

[ricardo440]

I agree too.

A Player should be in control of their character. They should be the ones to make all the decisions. The rules are there and are transparent so everyone can understand them.

 

[Mark Dunder]

Yes, I feel the GM should be more of a referee than a dictator, at least for many of the more realistic games.

I suppose if most players attack Scholars without worry, knowing they can't harm them, then DB may have to be used. If the players, including the GM, take out the DB; something else should be used to add the flavor of fear, not just narrative. A DC of some type needs to be in place.

Anyway, I still feel Scholars should have something other than DB to give pause to attackers. I like the "do you know who I am?" the nobles can employ. For Scholars it can be that or "do you know what I am?"

 

[Mark Dunder]

What about "Fear of Contagion?" I think one of the fears people have, is the thought they might be Corrupted by magic in some way. In fact, what if the attack can get Corrupted? What if killing a sorcerer for evil purposes can cause the attacker to take Corruption of some sort?

Just a thought, I know Corruption is for magic users, but it could make a fear more real to the player.

 

[GrimJesta]

Whoops. I totally forgot about this thread so I didn't get a chance to reply.

Most players would get the right to retain total control over DB. But we're not talking about the average player, we're talking about players who cheese the DB, with things like running into a pack of badguys and then trying to self-detonate like a walking nuke. I wouldn't take the power away, I'd just arbitrate when and how it happens for players like that until they see, from example, what the power is there for.

Narration over powergaming.

-=Grim=-

 

[Scorpion13]

Whoops. I totally forgot about this thread so I didn't get a chance to reply.

Most players would get the right to retain total control over DB. But we're not talking about the average player, we're talking about players who cheese the DB, with things like running into a pack of badguys and then trying to self-detonate like a walking nuke. I wouldn't take the power away, I'd just arbitrate when and how it happens for players like that until they see, from example, what the power is there for.

Narration over powergaming.

-=Grim=-

Make them pay. Simple as that.

A single bowman sniper could take him out at that point.

Or perhaps a war of souls with another sorceror.

And then, of course, he has to make sure he got all those guys with his shot, because if not, he's dead meat.

Im not saying hammer him for displeasing you, just let him know that perhaps that isnt the best thing to be doing at all times.

 

[Mark Dunder]

You need to tell the players before they start playing your campaign, how you feel about DB and that you will not let them use it except as you have determined it's use. Just don't let them use it anyway they want, and then punish them. I know for a fact, that you will lose players doing that. Let them know right up front what it's all about and they will do fine, you'll see.

 

[Scorpion13]

You need to tell the players before they start playing your campaign, how you feel about DB and that you will not let them use it except as you have determined it's use. Just don't let them use it anyway they want, and then punish them. I know for a fact, that you will lose players doing that. Let them know right up front what it's all about and they will do fine, you'll see.

I understand your argument, but as a player, Id be pretty irked if the GM started to interfere with the actions I chose to take because he didnt agree with them.

 

[Raven Blackwell]

The GM is an absolute creator-god/goddess of their own small universe. What they say goes. Otherwise, find another world.