Really starting to bug me about Scholars

[argo]

By RAW your intrepretation is incorrect Crisippo. Once again, people keep mistaking DB for an area affect spell. It is not. It is a targeted spell with the target being any number of creatures all of whom are within a 10-foot radius of the sorcorer.

If the scholar himself was a target then he would be specified as such. The line would read "The sorcorer and any creature withing a 10-foot radius of him ...". But thats not what it says.

You know. Sometimes I feel like DB is a bit of a roscharc test. How many people look at it and say "fireball" and how many look at it and say "unspecified close-range death magic". I wonder?

Later.

 

[Scorpion13]

I just read the passage, and it says....

All creatures within a 10ft radius of the sorceror are dealt 1d6 fire damage per power point expended.

 

[Shonuff]

You know. Sometimes I feel like DB is a bit of a roscharc test. How many people look at it and say "fireball" and how many look at it and say "unspecified close-range death magic". I wonder?

From Conan AE - I believe the "1d6 FIRE damage" may have something to do with those thinking fireball. :wink: But there are plenty of good house rule suggestions to change the type of damage delivered.

Conan AE also states "The sorcerer himself is unaffected by his own blast."

Hope this helps.
Take care.

 

[Mark Dunder]

I just realized something. Conan did not have a sense that helped him to detect the nature of his adversaries. He was fooled many times by them, because he didn't realize who they were till almost too late.

Therefore, a sorcerer would have to do something or wear something to proclaim him/her for what they were. Attacking them would not have any effect unless the attacker knew beforehand who they were.

If players came upon a lone sorcerer, but the sorcerer is dressed in normal travelling clothes, and chose to attack, would they do so without worry, or would they be afraid of DB?

Conan never worried about being blasted, he figured he was fast enough to kill the sorcerer before they had time to use a spell. Even the eastern monks with their poisonous staves, were not fast enough to beat Conan.

I think DB changes the way Conan RPG is played. I think DB is a mistake in design. I think a different way of making Scholars more of a threat should have been figured out. Give them an attack spell or item, not a generalized bomb. Might let them learn how to fight better too. Multiclassing takes care of a lot of this, I suppose.

 

[Voltumna]

I think DB changes the way Conan RPG is played. I think DB is a mistake in design. I think a different way of making Scholars more of a threat should have been figured out. Give them an attack spell or item, not a generalized bomb. Might let them learn how to fight better too. Multiclassing takes care of a lot of this, I suppose.

This is off topic, but I don't think a fighting-mainly scholar character is a good idea. They have abysmal DV, HPs and fort saves. They have bad reflex saves also which menas they have bad initiative modifiers. I was sketching a scholar-noble the other day. I laughed when I looked at the combat stats. Even with Oriental magic that allows you to boost combat skills, there is still the problem of casting the spells and casting time. If you are ever surprised, you are most likely doomed. Even with the feat from H's Fallen First strike, the initiative score unmodified by sorcery was average.

 

[Sven]

I just realized something. Conan did not have a sense that helped him to detect the nature of his adversaries. He was fooled many times by them, because he didn't realize who they were till almost too late.

Therefore, a sorcerer would have to do something or wear something to proclaim him/her for what they were. Attacking them would not have any effect unless the attacker knew beforehand who they were.

If players came upon a lone sorcerer, but the sorcerer is dressed in normal travelling clothes, and chose to attack, would they do so without worry, or would they be afraid of DB?

Conan never worried about being blasted, he figured he was fast enough to kill the sorcerer before they had time to use a spell. Even the eastern monks with their poisonous staves, were not fast enough to beat Conan.

I think DB changes the way Conan RPG is played. I think DB is a mistake in design. I think a different way of making Scholars more of a threat should have been figured out. Give them an attack spell or item, not a generalized bomb. Might let them learn how to fight better too. Multiclassing takes care of a lot of this, I suppose.

I also think the Defensive Blast is non-Conan. I used in one of my games the defensive blast as a last ditch against a warrior who tried to kill my sorceress, and turned him to a cinder. The rest of the group (the characters AND the players were horrfied by the powerful effect the second-level sorceress could generate (she had almost all off her PP before the DB).
One way to change the DB would be to change the area-effect to a "one creature only"effect, so the scholar could defend himself against one enemy, and maybe more with more experience (1 enemy per 2 levels, or so)
I am also irritated by the fire-aspect. I think the abilty should just generate a death effect, but not fire.

 

[argo]

I am also irritated by the fire-aspect. I think the abilty should just generate a death effect, but not fire.

I think the designers chose Fire because of its simplicity and ease of use. For example, there is no energy type called "death" and although there ar such things as "deah effects" they don't deal damage but are usually save-or-die effects. I suppose you could make it Negative Energy damage but that would make it prety much unique in Conan as I can't think of anything else that deals negative energy damage off hand. It would also lead to the interesting scenario of a necromancer scholar using his DB to simeltaneously toast his enemies and "heal" his minions ....

But, as I said earlier I support anyone who wants to change the energy type to keep things interesting. I even like the idea of different scholars having different typed DB's in the same gameworld. Variety is the spice of life (or death, as the case may be here)

Later.

 

[Sven]

I am also irritated by the fire-aspect. I think the abilty should just generate a death effect, but not fire.

I think the designers chose Fire because of its simplicity and ease of use. For example, there is no energy type called "death" and although there ar such things as "deah effects" they don't deal damage but are usually save-or-die effects. I suppose you could make it Negative Energy damage but that would make it prety much unique in Conan as I can't think of anything else that deals negative energy damage off hand. It would also lead to the interesting scenario of a necromancer scholar using his DB to simeltaneously toast his enemies and "heal" his minions ....

But, as I said earlier I support anyone who wants to change the energy type to keep things interesting. I even like the idea of different scholars having different typed DB's in the same gameworld. Variety is the spice of life (or death, as the case may be here)

Later.

Why not a death effect? Use the half the amount of damage generated by the DB as a DC for a Massive Damage Fortitude Save, instead of dealing normal damage.

Alternatively I had some ideas about the Defensive Blast somewhere here on the board.

For simplicity, here are my suggestions (or optional rules) again:

1. Pushing It. Defensive Blast is automatically "Pushingh It". So, a sorcerer does not just use up all his positive PP, but he reduces himself to a negative number equal to his Base PP and the sorcerer is fatigued then.

(I did this to give a sorcerer who has only very few PP left to have this ability still in store. But he will be without power some time if he has no means of sacrifice, meditation, black lotus or whatever. )

2. Danger of Corruption. The sorcerer must make a Corruption Save with a DC equal to the power points spent. ("So, you spent 35 PP for your blast, well, make your save!")

3. Mighty Spell. Defensive Blast counts as a mighty spell, and the sorcerer must make a Will saving throw against runaway magic as if this was his second mighty spell in a week. (So, the sorceror is in danger himself when using this powerful ability)

 

[Scorpion13]

I am also irritated by the fire-aspect. I think the abilty should just generate a death effect, but not fire.

I think the designers chose Fire because of its simplicity and ease of use. For example, there is no energy type called "death" and although there ar such things as "deah effects" they don't deal damage but are usually save-or-die effects. I suppose you could make it Negative Energy damage but that would make it prety much unique in Conan as I can't think of anything else that deals negative energy damage off hand. It would also lead to the interesting scenario of a necromancer scholar using his DB to simeltaneously toast his enemies and "heal" his minions ....

But, as I said earlier I support anyone who wants to change the energy type to keep things interesting. I even like the idea of different scholars having different typed DB's in the same gameworld. Variety is the spice of life (or death, as the case may be here)

Later.

Why not a death effect? Use the half the amount of damage generated by the DB as a DC for a Massive Damage Fortitude Save, instead of dealing normal damage.

Alternatively I had some ideas about the Defensive Blast somewhere here on the board.

For simplicity, here are my suggestions (or optional rules) again:

1. Pushing It. Defensive Blast is automatically "Pushingh It". So, a sorcerer does not just use up all his positive PP, but he reduces himself to a negative number equal to his Base PP and the sorcerer is fatigued then.

(I did this to give a sorcerer who has only very few PP left to have this ability still in store. But he will be without power some time if he has no means of sacrifice, meditation, black lotus or whatever. )

2. Danger of Corruption. The sorcerer must make a Corruption Save with a DC equal to the power points spent. ("So, you spent 35 PP for your blast, well, make your save!")

3. Mighty Spell. Defensive Blast counts as a mighty spell, and the sorcerer must make a Will saving throw against runaway magic as if this was his second mighty spell in a week. (So, the sorceror is in danger himself when using this powerful ability)

You know, I really like those ideas. They all make sense, and while they all make using DB costly, it still remains a viable option.

Good work. Im putting that stuff in my house rules.

 

[Mark Dunder]

If I ever try it out, I will make DB a regular spell, probably a Mighty Spell. A Scholar will not have it automatically.

Also, a player will not be able to choose Scholar as a starting character, they will have to choose another class first, then they may choose Scholars. Only NPCs will be allowed to have Scholar as the first class.

That's just the way I would do it. Might not be a good fix, but for me it would be "a" fix.

 

[Sven]

I think the designers chose Fire because of its simplicity and ease of use. For example, there is no energy type called "death" and although there ar such things as "deah effects" they don't deal damage but are usually save-or-die effects. I suppose you could make it Negative Energy damage but that would make it prety much unique in Conan as I can't think of anything else that deals negative energy damage off hand. It would also lead to the interesting scenario of a necromancer scholar using his DB to simeltaneously toast his enemies and "heal" his minions ....

But, as I said earlier I support anyone who wants to change the energy type to keep things interesting. I even like the idea of different scholars having different typed DB's in the same gameworld. Variety is the spice of life (or death, as the case may be here)

Later.

Why not a death effect? Use the half the amount of damage generated by the DB as a DC for a Massive Damage Fortitude Save, instead of dealing normal damage.

Alternatively I had some ideas about the Defensive Blast somewhere here on the board.

For simplicity, here are my suggestions (or optional rules) again:

1. Pushing It. Defensive Blast is automatically "Pushingh It". So, a sorcerer does not just use up all his positive PP, but he reduces himself to a negative number equal to his Base PP and the sorcerer is fatigued then.

(I did this to give a sorcerer who has only very few PP left to have this ability still in store. But he will be without power some time if he has no means of sacrifice, meditation, black lotus or whatever. )

2. Danger of Corruption. The sorcerer must make a Corruption Save with a DC equal to the power points spent. ("So, you spent 35 PP for your blast, well, make your save!")

3. Mighty Spell. Defensive Blast counts as a mighty spell, and the sorcerer must make a Will saving throw against runaway magic as if this was his second mighty spell in a week. (So, the sorceror is in danger himself when using this powerful ability)

You know, I really like those ideas. They all make sense, and while they all make using DB costly, it still remains a viable option.

Good work. Im putting that stuff in my house rules.

Thank you.

In the moment I am thinking to use this house rule here also:

The Defensive Blast makes 1D6 Damege per PP spent, with a maximum of D6 equal to the number of spells learned by the the sorceror.

So, a sorceror who knows 6 spells and uses his last 12 PP (including those by "Pushing It") to activate the Defensive Blast, deals 6D6 points of fire damage within a 10ft radius to any creature.

And a sorceror who knows 15 spells and uses his last 12 PP (including those by "Pushing It") to activate the Defensive Blast, deals 12D6 points of fire damage within a 10ft radius to any creature.

With this rule it would be possible to take away the guy with one level of scholar and mighty firepower. The more spells a sorceror knows the more magic power he can unleash on his enemies if he has no other option left. And scholars without spells would also be barred from using this option. (Like a priest of Mitra, or a Stygian Scribe)

 

[Sutek]

1- rule DB is a Mighty Spell (cuts down on uses of DB per week - my personal rule)
2- rule DB makes the scholar fatigued (cuts doen on uses of DB per day - note that fatigue stacks so on your second DB you are exhausted)
3- use thulsa's rule (not my personal cup of tea but its a good rule)
4- ban the Opportunistic Sacrifice feat (I dislike outright bans but I could bite my tongue for this one as it is one of the more twinkish feats)
5- rule that you can't regain PP from foes killed by DB (I really dislike this as it makes absoluetly no sense at all, but at least its practical)

You forgot:

6- Make DB a Full Round Action, therefore denying its use along with OppSacrifce.
7- make DB an action PERIOD, just like casting a spell, and therefore provoking AoOs and all that - I'd suggest a Standard since the idea is that the sorcerer is not holding his ground, but actually trying to get away.

 

[argo]

1- rule DB is a Mighty Spell (cuts down on uses of DB per week - my personal rule)
2- rule DB makes the scholar fatigued (cuts doen on uses of DB per day - note that fatigue stacks so on your second DB you are exhausted)
3- use thulsa's rule (not my personal cup of tea but its a good rule)
4- ban the Opportunistic Sacrifice feat (I dislike outright bans but I could bite my tongue for this one as it is one of the more twinkish feats)
5- rule that you can't regain PP from foes killed by DB (I really dislike this as it makes absoluetly no sense at all, but at least its practical)

You forgot:

6- Make DB a Full Round Action, therefore denying its use along with OppSacrifce.
7- make DB an action PERIOD, just like casting a spell, and therefore provoking AoOs and all that - I'd suggest a Standard since the idea is that the sorcerer is not holding his ground, but actually trying to get away.

But if DB is no longer a free action/AoO then it looses much of its utility as a defensive ability. And the point of this thread has been ways to encourage a more defensive use of Defensive Blast.

A scholar using DB offensevely will not mind it being a standard/full round action any more than the barbarian minds a melee attack being a standard/full round action. Only the scholar trying to use DB to escape his enemies will be hurt by that.

Later.

 

[Baduin]

There is no "Defensive Blast" in Howard stories. Sorcerers are defended by other things.

Fear of Sorcery

Quote from "Hour of the Dragon"

"And the central provinces would not rise, even if they knew you lived. They would not dare. Sorcery defeated you at Valkia. Sorcery brought the news to Tarantia, for that very night men were shouting of it in the streets.

“A Nemedian priest loosed black magic again in the streets of Tarantia to slay men who still were loyal to your memory. I myself saw it. Armed men dropped like flies and died in the streets in a manner no man could understand. And the lean priest laughed and said: ‘I am only Altaro, only an acolyte of Orastes, who is but an acolyte of him who wears the veil; not mine is the power; the power but works through me.’”

“Well,” said Conan harshly, “is it not better to die honorably than to live in infamy? Is death worse than oppression, slavery and ultimate destruction?”

“When the fear of sorcery is in, reason is out,” replied Servius. "

To simulate the fear of sorcery, I would suggest the following rule:

Anyone who attempts to attack a sorcerer, must make a Terror save. The DC is 10 + ½ Scholar level. The Terror don't applies in the following cases:
1) Character has no means to know that the character is a sorcerer. To know that someone is a sorcerer, you must have seen him cast a spell, or he must be clad in the traditional clothing of a sorcerer.

2) In the second case the terror save applies only when the character is sure that the sorcerer is genuine, and only when he is sure that sorcerers really wield dark powers. The character must have witnessed sorcery to be afraid of sorcerers.

3) If sorcerers attacks someone with mundane weapons, he no longer causes terror. If he has to use mundane weapons, he apparently doesn't possess any dangerous magic. Such things as serpent -staffs don't count as mundane weapons.

4) Lower-level sorcerers are afraid of higher-level ones.


Here is a quote from "Men of the Black Circle"

"The crimson cloud balanced like a spinning top for an instant, whirling in a dazzling sheen on its point. Then without warning it was gone, vanished as a bubble vanishes when burst. There on the ledge stood four men. It was miraculous, incredible, impossible, yet it was true. They were not ghosts or phantoms. They were four tall men, with shaven, vulture-like heads, and black robes that hid their feet. Their hands were concealed by their wide sleeves. They stood in silence, their naked heads nodding slightly in unison. They were facing Khemsa, but behind them Conan felt his own blood turning to ice in his veins. Rising he backed stealthily away, until he felt the stallion’s shoulder trembling against his back, and the Devi crept into the shelter of his arm. There was no word spoken. Silence hung like a stifling pall."

Even Conan can feel terror when he meets high-level sorcerers.

 

[Shonuff]

I believe there are a fair number of players that have been looking for a game mechanic to better handle the power in sorcerers that others so fear.

In my games, I usually do not allow sorcerer PCs beacuse I want the dark powers of Hyboria and those that wield them to remain a terrifying mystery.

The Defensive Blast mechanic is, in my oinion, not in the spirit of Howard's work. I understand a game designer's motive to put it in the game, but I think something better and more true to Conan's world can be created with some additional thought and some courage to go a different route from rules as they are currently written.

Some good alternate defensive blast mechanics have been shared here, but Baduin's post is a good one because I believe it is much more about the terror/fear of black magic than anything else. Our fears of the unknown can cripple us, especially when we have heard horrifying tales about the source beforehand.

Tweaking this idea just a bit might provide a mechanic helpful to sorcerers that is much more in line with the classic Conan stories we love.

How might this Terror save (or something like that) make use of the scholar's reputation? Or maybe Charisma modifier?

I'll think on it some as well because I'd like a better alternative for my games also.

 

[quigs]

Wow, I really like Baduin's ideas. I am also GM'ing a Conan game and I cannot stand the defensive blast flavour. I've been reading the Howard stories for a few weeks now and the fear factor of sorcery really needs to be bumped up a notch, since almost EVERY villain sorcerer strikes fear into his victims.

I'm curious though as to whether this would apply to alchemical item attacks? I would assume yes since that art is generally only practiced by sorcerers (even in the game mechanics). Seeing such a sight as your friend exploding in a ball of flame that seemingly sprang from the sorcerer's hand should definately provoke a fear of said sorcerer!

 

[urdinaran]

You know what really bugs ME about Sorcerers? Their pompous attitudes, teh way they taunt you as they slowly torture you, the way they wring their hands, and that whole "Muhahahahaha" thing; I mean, what is that all about anyway?

 

[Scorpion13]

You know what really bugs ME about Sorcerers? Their pompous attitudes, teh way they taunt you as they slowly torture you, the way they wring their hands, and that whole "Muhahahahaha" thing; I mean, what is that all about anyway?

Hello, sir. Have you thought about accepting evil into your life?

 

[Baduin]

Sorcerous tools and substances count as sorcery, certainly. Also, the rule that making mundane attacks removes Terror doesn't applies eg to dominating someone, forcing him to come to you and kneel, and then cutting his head off with a sword. This is certainly a sorcerous attack for the purpose of terror, although the sword can be completely nonmagical.

As for DC - if you think 10 + 1/2 Scholar level is too low, you can add Bonus:

Bonus equals the highest of the following
- Charisma bonus for independent scholars or scholars who serve a demon in secret
- Charisma bonus + 3 for scholars with a powerful master, or who openly serve a demon
- Half of Corruption
- 1/10 of Reputation

And, obviously, like with other Terror of Unknown tests, if you make a save for a particular sorcerer, you will never be afraid of him.

Independent sorcerers should have also a number of death-curses, along the lines of the Curse of Yizil, but suited also for non-spellcasting targets.

The most powerful curse would be, I think, an authentic Norse curse, the curse of Glam, from the Saga of Grettir the Strong:

http://omacl.org/Grettir/gr32-48.html

"At the moment when Glam fell the moon shone forth, and Glam turned his eyes up towards it. Grettir himself has related that that sight was the only one which ever made him tremble. What with fatigue and all else that he had endured, when he saw the horrible rolling of Glam's eyes his heart sank so utterly that he had not strength to draw his sword, but lay there wellnigh betwixt life and death. Glam possessed more malignant power than most fiends, for he now spoke in this wise:

"You have expended much energy, Grettir, in your search for me. Nor is that to be wondered at, if you should have little joy thereof. And now I tell you that you shall possess only half the strength and firmness of heart that were decreed to you if you had not striven with me. The might which was yours till now I am not able to take away, but it is in my power to ordain that never shall you grow stronger than you are now. Nevertheless your might is sufficient, as many shall find to their cost. Hitherto you have earned fame through your deeds, but henceforward there shall fall upon you exile and battle; your deeds shall turn to evil and your guardian-spirit shall forsake you. You will be outlawed and your lot shall be to dwell ever alone. And this I lay upon you, that these eyes of mine shall be ever before your vision. You will find it hard to live alone, and at last it shall drag you to death."

Until the character manages to get rid of the curse, which can be difficult, he suffers the following penalties:

- cannot gain new levels
- penalty of -2 to Will saves,
- when trying to walk alone at night, must make Terror save - he sees the ghost of his enemy. The Terror save must be made once each night, when alone. When in company, doesn't have to make Terror saves.

 

[Mark Dunder]

I think Baduin's on the right track. If we can play up the Terror angle and make it work, it will bring many of the Conan stories to life.

I just realized that DB is designed to cause "players" to feel fear. NPCs and your character, do not have to be blasted to bits to be afraid. Rumor and stories of the horrible spells cast upon innocent people, should engender fear and cause deep primordial memories to creep to the forefront and cause thrills of horror to run up and down the spine.

Gives me the shivers just thinking about it. It's like the time I had to walk alone at night between a neighbors house a mile away from home, and I didn't have a flashlight. It was just before school had started in fall, I was about 12 I think. It was not pitch black, it never really got that dark at night in the late summer in Alaska, but the shadows always seemed to be an animal lurking just at the edge of my sight. Mostly wolves, bears, or even an angry moose came to mind, but what scared me the most is that feeling of something creeping up on me from behind, something I could never put a name to. I've never gotten over that fear of the something creeping up on me in the dark. But that night I was alone for so long, was probably the worst time I had. And you knew, that if you ran, you were lost.

That to me is what the Fear of Magic would be like.