Reach weapons

gav

Mongoose
Can anyone help?
If a pc is using a war spear and an opponent moves into the pcs adjacent
square, does the pc get an AoO as the opponent moves through the 10ft square and into the 5ft square?
Hope this makes sense :?

Yes, as the target is leaving a threatened square.

AoOs due to movement take place in the square where the AoO was attracted, not the destination square. If a target moves away from you out of a threatened square, you get the AoO, even if their movement takes them beyond your reach. The same principle applies if they are moving towards you.

Stepping back from an adjacent square, however, would not not attract an AoO from a reach weapon (because the initial square is not threatened). Stepping from an adjacent square, into one threatened by a reach weapon, and then continuing away would attract an AoO.

thanks, it came up in a game last night and we were not too sure

As long as the target moving from the threatened square didn't only move a 5-foot step, in which case no AoO applies (unless he then casts a spell or something similar).

SableWyvern said:
If a target moves away from you out of a threatened square, you get the AoO, even if their movement takes them beyond your reach.

I don't believe this is always the case. As spydcarnage mentioned if the character is only making a 5' step and not doing something else that would provoke an AOOP there is no attack.
Also if the character moving away is only moving, whether a single move or double move, the square he starts in is never consider a threatened square so no AOOP should happen. But it is ONLY his starting square that isn't considered as threatened. Any other squares moved through would attract AOOP as per normal.

AZZA: absolutely. My response was working on the assumption that all the normal criteria for provoking an AoO existed, and the only point of contention regarded moving beyond the limit of threatened zone.

So what your saying is if he moves out of the threatened square wether toward or away from the enemy and only takes a 5ft step he doesnt provoke AoO, is this also the case if he makes his full attack action before or after the 5ft step? Im a bit confused here

A 5' Step never provokes an attack of opportunity unless combined in the round with another action that provokes an AoO.

So: A 5' step alone will never provoke.

A 5' Step + Melee attack will not provoke.

A 5' Step + Missile fire will provoke.

SableWyvern said:
A 5' Step never provokes an attack of opportunity unless combined in the round with another action that provokes an AoO.

So: A 5' step alone will never provoke.

A 5' Step + Melee attack will not provoke.

A 5' Step + Missile fire will provoke.

True, but this thread is about Reach Weapons. If someone has a weapon with a 10' reach and the opponent is in the 10' square... Then, when that opponent moves in to strike, it provokes an AoO.

Now, one could argue that if the opponent moves in 5' and does nothing, they do not provoke an AoO. I personally wouldn't allow it because it's bending the rules to your favor (not that there's anything wrong with that). Besides, it makes no sense to walk up NEXT to someone who's trying to kill you and then just stand there so that they can't whack you... :shock:

so could an opponent move away from the 10ft square with a 5ft step only,
and not attract an AoO?
this seems odd

gav said:
so could an opponent move away from the 10ft square with a 5ft step only,
and not attract an AoO?
this seems odd

Yes, the way the rules are written. Works the same way in d20 DND.

To me, the 5' step feels like cheating. Even when I do it with a character, it doesn't seem right. But, on the other hand, the guy with the polearm still has the advantage.

Opponent moves 5' away from threatened zone to avoid the AoO. It doesn't matter if he moves forward, left, right, backwards, or diagonally. During the next round, the polearm fighter needs only make a 5' step to re-endanger the opponent PLUS he gets to take a FULL ATTACK ACTION. Polearm fighter wins anyways. So, you might as well take the AoO and then hope you can do enough damage to incapacitate the guy with the polearm.

gav said:
so could an opponent move away from the 10ft square with a 5ft step only,
and not attract an AoO?
this seems odd

A 5 foot step represents small amounts of movement that take place as you otherwise give your full attention to avoiding being hit by the person threatening you.

You hack, you thrust, you parry, and in effect, fight your way through those 5 feet, without dropping your guard.

So no AoO.

Try to move faster or, try perform a complex action that means you have to drop your guard, even for a fraction of a second, and you get an AoO.

Fyrestryke said:
SableWyvern said:
A 5' Step never provokes an attack of opportunity unless combined in the round with another action that provokes an AoO.

So: A 5' step alone will never provoke.

A 5' Step + Melee attack will not provoke.

A 5' Step + Missile fire will provoke.

True, but this thread is about Reach Weapons. If someone has a weapon with a 10' reach and the opponent is in the 10' square... Then, when that opponent moves in to strike, it provokes an AoO.

Now, one could argue that if the opponent moves in 5' and does nothing, they do not provoke an AoO. I personally wouldn't allow it because it's bending the rules to your favor (not that there's anything wrong with that). Besides, it makes no sense to walk up NEXT to someone who's trying to kill you and then just stand there so that they can't whack you... :shock:

Nope. If you are at 10' from someone with a reach weapon, you can 5' step up to them and then make a melee attack and you will not attract an AoO.

This is the whole point of 5' steps.

In the same fashion, if you were adjacent to someone with a non-reach weapon, you could make a 5' Step to another square also adjacent to them, make a melee attack, and not attract an AoO.

Also, not taking an action does not necessarily equate to "doing nothing". I would assume that if someone stood adjacent to a character attacking them without taking an action, that they were still actively endeavouring not to be hit.

I really don't know if these will help or not, but here's 2 similar threads on AoOs in general:
http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2128&start=60&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=
and
http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2507&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=

Just trying to link any AoO/5' step threads. I thought there were a bunch, but it looks like fewer posts. I honestly don't know at this moment if either/both discuss reach, but w/ all the AoO references, just thougth I'd post fyi.

Lemme start by saying I hate rules; they do nothing but complicate a good game.

Also, I don't have the Atlantean Edition. What is the current RAW?

The original Conan book sez (pg171): "Taking [a] 5' step doesn't provoke an AoO unless it is combined with another action in the round."

This differs from standard d20 rules. If the Atlantean edition changed this, please disregard the rest of my post:

It's quite simple -- Taking a 5' step in Conan only provides an AoO if you take another action. Otherwise, you may move 5' and do nothing else and that movement will not provoke an AoO.

Is this a rules change in the Atlantean Edition?
A 5' Step never provokes an attack of opportunity unless combined in the round with another action that provokes an AoO.

Ok, the 5' Step in Conan is not the same as the 5' Step in DnD (or most other d20 games for that matter). In most d20 games the '5 step is a way to avoid AoO's, in Conan it is simply a way to take a small movement while still using your full-round for something else.

This is the easiest way to think of it:
If the only thing you do in a round is move, up to twice your normal movement, then the square your start off in is not considered threatened. In other words you do not provoke an AoO when you leave the first square but you could provoke AoO's for moving through other threatened squares. However, if you move more than twice your movement or take any other action on your round besides moving then you provoke an AoO when you leave your first threatened square.

So, if all you do is move 40' then you do not provoke an AoO for leaving your first square, if all you do is move 20' you do not provoke an AoO for leaving your first square, and if all you do in a round is move 5' then you do not provoke an AoO for leaving your first square. However if you take a 5' step and make a full-round melee attack then you do provoke an AoO as normal.

The relevant rule is on p171 of the origional edition
Taking this 5-foot step doesnt' provoke an attack of opportunity unless it is combined with another action in the round.

Hope that helps.

Sorry, but that quote is missing an important section. Here's the version from AE (p162):

Taking this 5-foot step does not provoke an attack of opportunity unless combined with another action in the round that does."

So, if you combine it with an action that does not provoke an AoO (as listed in the "Actions in Combat" table on p1555), then you do not provoke an AoO.

Having seen this topic discussed to death, I believe that the same thing was true in the earlier edition, although if argo's quote was accurate, then perhaps I was mistaken.

Certainly, it is not the case in AE.

Yeah, my quote is correct. Funny thing is that when the origional edition was released the consensus on the boards was that the rule as it stood was a good thing so I had not expected it to be changed with the new edition.

Eh. _shrug_ use whichever version suits your taste.

This really is one of the most confusing changes in Conan compared to standard D20. The AE rulebook doesnt help with the example following the standard D20 RAW! (The rule boys at Mongoose have since said that it was wrong.
The original edition rule was ok but made combat reflexes such a powerful feat. eg two+ fighters make 5 foot step up to spear man. He get AOOP on them. He then steps back 5 feet as his only action and the process continues. I watched one player almost completely wipe out a pack of hyenas at first levelby standing in the middle of group stabbing all of the animals as they tried to attack.
The new one is easy to remember. If the action would have provoked if you stayed where you are it still provokes. Stops the annoying step back archery nonsence.

I further confused it for my players by adding a couple of other conditions like moving to engage extra opponents. It makes it a bit of a mix of the two.

And I further confuse it by interpreting it this way:

A) 5' Step does not provoke unless combined with an action that does so.
B) Therefore, if the action provokes, then the 5' step does also.
C) This results in at least 2 possible provoked AoOs
D) Mongoose and other d20 game sources agree on one bit: multiple AoOs may be provoked from the same target individual, but not from the same source action. In other words, if you do multiple things that are potentially provoking, so long as the actions are not repreated, you then provoke with all three or as many as were not repeated. An axample of this might be standing from prone and taking a 5' step out of a opponent's threatened square.

A simpler occurance might be taking a 5' step away from an adjacent enemy to then cast a spell. Casting provokes, there fore the step out does. My interpretation would be that the Cast provokes as you leave and so does the step - more harsh, but the moral is "don't get yourself in that kind of jam in the first place."

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