Quick question on "Zombies"

[StellarVenture]

The "zombies" bio bots found in the robot handbook price seems to be quite high for something described as often being supplemented with an already developed body instead of creating a bio bot from scratch. Is it safe to assume that a chunk of the listed value for these zombies comes from the value of developing an equivalent clone?

If not I'm mostly just curious on where the value breakdown comes from. Since they're more like cyborgs, that can be controlled, than a true bio bot.

 

[MonsterX]

I have assumed that it is possible to make them on the cheap, if you can acquire living "volunteers". Legal complications may arise, unless you are positioned to be the one writing the laws. Some might also find the practice morally objectionable.

 

[StellarVenture]

I have assumed that it is possible to make them on the cheap, if you can acquire living "volunteers". Legal complications may arise, unless you are positioned to be the one writing the laws. Some might also find the practice morally objectionable.

That is definitely more the angle I'm looking at, those in power of a planet imposing it as a capital sentence. It being a great punishment that allows one to contribute beyond "death" helping to alleviate the social stigma while not having people fear being grabbed from their homes.

I understand that the robot brain will be an all too present cost but by not growing the body you'd expect the cost to be far cheaper than listed.

 

[swordtart]

The cost of the Zombie in the RH already assumes you are not growing the body (if you are then it is a normal biological robot).

The KCr10 KCR100 listed is the cost of the basic brain alone (the advanced ones are MCrs). Even the basic brain interfaced to a biological body is far more expensive than the non bio equivalent. It is too expensive in my opinion and I'd have liked to see a simple scaling from the normal robot brains rather than a new table). However there is probably a lower limit of cost as the brain body interface is likely as complex as a neural link (which is KCr30) plus an extra cost as the robot brain replaces the brain rather than merely substitute some of its functions.

We can presume perhaps that governments will be able to make bulk savings and the costs might not be as high for them.

Where your dubious government will make savings will be in reusing the same brain in multiple bodies once they wear out. That KCr10 is much less if it can serve for centuries being grafted onto different bodies as they wear out. Delightfully sinister Or possibly this could be likened to reincarnation and a positive spin put on it.

If you were simply looking for cheap workers pressed from death row, it would be cheaper and easier to lobotomise them rather than build a robotic brain and implant it. Or just fit a cortex bomb to ensure compliance.

EDIT:
Typo on the price.

 

[Jame Rowe]

Provided I get the Robot Handbook*, I might well just make zombie bots a LOT cheaper.

*I've been running out of energy, and having difficulty finding local players.

 

[Endie]

That is definitely more the angle I'm looking at, those in power of a planet imposing it as a capital sentence. It being a great punishment that allows one to contribute beyond "death" helping to alleviate the social stigma while not having people fear being grabbed from their homes.

I understand that the robot brain will be an all too present cost but by not growing the body you'd expect the cost to be far cheaper than listed.

If only this were far-fetched, but China has embedded mandatory organ reuse for executed prisoners into their system, and there appears to be a decent-sized industry in finding prisoners who are a match to rich individuals and ensuring that their sentences lead to organs becoming rapidly available.

 

[swordtart]

Re-reading that RH I see that the KCr100 is for the "basic" robot brain implant. This is actually an Advanced Brain (Int 8).

The brain for a normal biological robot seems to be triple the cost of the equivalent non-biological one. You could assume that the body is free if you are using donors and the only cost would then be the brain (assuming fitting it is part of the overall cost). If you wanted a really cheap disposable workforce you could get by with even a Basic(X) Brain and at the right TL that could go as low as KCr12.

On that basis I would consider lowering the cost of Labourer style Zombie to KCr12 plus whatever the body costs (either cheap clone or "donor"). This would likely be cheaper than a true clone (for training if nothing else) and avoid the rapid aging issue if a non-clone donor was used. Win-Win

You might also consider that the Biological Advanced Brain is only KCr30 at TL12 and possibly might be more intelligent than the donor (it tends to be the less intelligent criminals that get caught) and absolutely more than a lobotomised human. Such brains could presumably be reused if the donor body failed further reducing cost (indeed there may be a "used" market for such brains in shadier polities.

 

[StellarVenture]

Re-reading that RH I see that the KCr100 is for the "basic" robot brain implant. This is actually an Advanced Brain (Int 8).

The brain for a normal biological robot seems to be triple the cost of the equivalent non-biological one. You could assume that the body is free if you are using donors and the only cost would then be the brain (assuming fitting it is part of the overall cost). If you wanted a really cheap disposable workforce you could get by with even a Basic(X) Brain and at the right TL that could go as low as KCr12.

On that basis I would consider lowering the cost of Labourer style Zombie to KCr12 plus whatever the body costs (either cheap clone or "donor"). This would likely be cheaper than a true clone (for training if nothing else) and avoid the rapid aging issue if a non-clone donor was used. Win-Win

You might also consider that the Biological Advanced Brain is only KCr30 at TL12 and possibly might be more intelligent than the donor (it tends to be the less intelligent criminals that get caught) and absolutely more than a lobotomised human. Such brains could presumably be reused if the donor body failed further reducing cost (indeed there may be a "used" market for such brains in shadier polities.

It does triple the cost, listed in the bio bot description just before cyborg stuff, but the zombie only has a basic brain which after that still only comes to 60k credits.

Doing up the rest in the robot creation steps I saw the body+locomotion taking up 30k~ which was why I felt with the reused body it should be discounted.

However maybe I'll have to find/think of something that hijacks instead of replaces the brain for what I'm wanting from it.

 

[StellarVenture]

The cost of the Zombie in the RH already assumes you are not growing the body (if you are then it is a normal biological robot).

The KCr10 listed is the cost of the basic brain alone (the advanced ones are MCrs). Even the basic brain interfaced to a biological body is far more expensive than the non bio equivalent. It is too expensive in my opinion and I'd have liked to see a simple scaling from the normal robot brains rather than a new table). However there is probably a lower limit of cost as the brain body interface is likely as complex as a neural link (which is KCr30) plus an extra cost as the robot brain replaces the brain rather than merely substitute some of its functions.

We can presume perhaps that governments will be able to make bulk savings and the costs might not be as high for them.

Where your dubious government will make savings will be in reusing the same brain in multiple bodies once they wear out. That KCr10 is much less if it can serve for centuries being grafted onto different bodies as they wear out. Delightfully sinister Or possibly this could be likened to reincarnation and a positive spin put on it.

If you were simply looking for cheap workers pressed from death row, it would be cheaper and easier to lobotomise them rather than build a robotic brain and implant it. Or just fit a cortex bomb to ensure compliance.

Minor note, zombies are 100k credits. The basic brain it has gets a x3 for being a bio bot brain, I'd assume that accounts for the interface, which only really accounts for 60k of that 100

 

[swordtart]

Minor note, zombies are 100k credits. The basic brain it has gets a x3 for being a bio bot brain, I'd assume that accounts for the interface, which only really accounts for 60k of that 100

Yes, apologies for that typo.

How are you getting the cost of the brain to KCr60? From TL10 the cost of a basic brain is KCr4 trebled for a biological unit that is still only KCR12. I cannot see why you would fit a more expensive less capable TL8 version as the Zombie is listed as TL11. Further the TL8 version would only be INT 3 not the INT 4 listed.

The Zombie entry lists basic Biorobot body as a component so it looks like KCr32 (16*KCr2) has been added to the price for that (despite the premise being it is a repurposed sophont). It has a few more options than the default suite, but there is no way they account for the missing KCr56, but if you are correct about the brain being KCr60 then the body and brain would be KCr92 and KCr100 is in the ball park.

It seems like an editing issue.

 

[StellarVenture]

RH pg 66, basic(x) TL 8 brain CR 20,000. On the following page it does also call out that retro tech discount doesn't apply (or already accounted for) with brains below very advanced.

Then on pg 88 where it details bio bots "As with an android, the biological robot option triples the physical cost of the robot, up to and including the brain". Which also lists the basic, TL 11 like zombies, version as having cost base slot Cr2000. 16 slots at size 5, as you said, which might be affected by the x3 but I'm not sure. Which if it does apply brings that 32k to 96k giving potentially the discount another poster did describe.

So, 20,000 x3 for bio bot was how I was getting 60k

Unless I've missed something which is entirely possible and a part of why I thought to bring it to the forums.

 

[rinku]

Okay, the Cr100k for the Zombie includes everything listed to install a basic brain in a "donor" body. There's likely a fudge factor to cover the cost of the body - clearly much cheaper than growing a clone for months, but not zero. Even if you're using criminals or abducted victims, processing those is not free. But it's also likely to be a variable cost, so I suspect Geir has just rounded it up from the 90k-odd figure.

 

[swordtart]

RH pg 66, basic(x) TL 8 brain CR 20,000. On the following page it does also call out that retro tech discount doesn't apply (or already accounted for) with brains below very advanced.

Then on pg 88 where it details bio bots "As with an android, the biological robot option triples the physical cost of the robot, up to and including the brain". Which also lists the basic, TL 11 like zombies, version as having cost base slot Cr2000. 16 slots at size 5, as you said, which might be affected by the x3 but I'm not sure. Which if it does apply brings that 32k to 96k giving potentially the discount another poster did describe.

So, 20,000 x3 for bio bot was how I was getting 60k

Unless I've missed something which is entirely possible and a part of why I thought to bring it to the forums.

If you look further down the table on p66 of RH line 5 is for the TL10 Basic(X) brain. This is only KCr4 (and more capable). You would only go for a TL8 brain if it was the best you could manage (or support) and since you need TL11 for the rest that doesn't apply.

I don't think the Cr2000 per base slot is multiplied by 3 as that is specific to the biological robot. You can design a non-bio robot and then just triple the price from the bio-robot version. A normal size 5 robot with walker configuration would be KCr10 multiplied by 3 for a bio version would be KCr30 which is close enough to the 16*KCr2 from the table for bio-robots.

That should be discounted if the body is donated, but the cost shown for the Zombie is the retail cost to buy, not the cost of manufacture. A regular customer won't know if the body was a clone built specially (using the biorobot process) or a clone built by the clone rules or a body sourced by less savoury means.

I think we need Geir to provide the rationale as there are too many moving parts in robot design and for some of the variants the interaction is not clear, I am not sure why we even needed a table for the cost per slot if we can get almost the same number by a simple multiple that applied to every other component.

Ideally we would have had a worked example of each of the variants as well as the two default ones (or a more detailed breakdown of construction cost for every example like High Guard does for ships.

In these cases I tend to use the stats provides as a source of ideas, but rebuild the robot using the rules as stated and re-cost to that. I don't like arbitrary "discount" fudges, but I also don't have to make anything backwardly compatible with robots in other supplements that were not designed using the design rules in RH.

Burke and Hare Robots Ltd can knock out a zombie for KCr12, but purely for export you understand

* You might be able to build a mindless clone (such as for organ donation) cheaper (a flat KCr10 build cost once you have a template) than using the bio-robot rules or you might end up with a few rejects for other reasons. It would also allow you to use the clone stat line rather than the robot stat line and tune the clone closely by setting END as well as STR and DEX for manipulators.

EDIT:
Of course if you grow a clone then you could keep the clone brain and invest the KCr12 you would have paid for a robot brain for some on the job training. Even the worst TL8+clone will have a higher intelligence than the simple robot brain and will have the ability to learn, or install a basic waferjack.

I love this dystopia stuff

 

[hopsnbaer]

The whole fun to me of the Zombie is that it is created from a sentient sophont.

 

[Sigtrygg]

All this talk of cyberzombies... reminds me of this rather excellent idea a decade ago on CotI

Un-men

Un-men Concept: uncanny valley “humans” Description: look normal at a distance or in poor light, but up close the differences become apparent: dull eyes, subtly skewed proportions of face and body, manic grimaces, and graceless movements. They sometimes make strained vocal noises, as if...

www.travellerrpg.com

 

[Arkathan]

My characters went after Dr. Evazan. After tracking a control chip installed in kidnapped young people at raves, homeless encampments to one of the player's rivals, they found that the rival was under duress to develop and implant them, as the terrorists running an interstellar/inter-Empire slavery ring had converted his wife into one of Dr. Evazan's Craniated and threatened to do the same to his daughter. (The rival kept his wife in a cryotube in his lab)
The players coordinated with local authorities to have the daughter protected, but the person they dealt with was in the organization, and they had to rescue the daughter.
Dismantling the operation brought them in contact with chipped people (installed in the brainstem, the chip could take robotic/remote commands while selecting whether or not to allow the host's own brain stem to issue commands) and craniated used as cannon fodder for the cartel's aims (In this case, LOKI in SW (removing degenerates from the gene pool) and one of the Merchant Princes of Skull in the Imperium).

 

[StellarVenture]

My characters went after Dr. Evazan. After tracking a control chip installed in kidnapped young people at raves, homeless encampments to one of the player's rivals, they found that the rival was under duress to develop and implant them, as the terrorists running an interstellar/inter-Empire slavery ring had converted his wife into one of Dr. Evazan's Craniated and threatened to do the same to his daughter. (The rival kept his wife in a cryotube in his lab)
The players coordinated with local authorities to have the daughter protected, but the person they dealt with was in the organization, and they had to rescue the daughter.
Dismantling the operation brought them in contact with chipped people (installed in the brainstem, the chip could take robotic/remote commands while selecting whether or not to allow the host's own brain stem to issue commands) and craniated used as cannon fodder for the cartel's aims (In this case, LOKI in SW (removing degenerates from the gene pool) and one of the Merchant Princes of Skull in the Imperium).

Lobotomizing the individual and "hijacking" the processing power of the brain with an implant rather than a full replacement is something I've been considering the more I look at this. Still terrible but adds the extra layer of cold efficiency if it saves money by cutting corners on the manufacturing or processing.

 

[swordtart]

It also adds a bit more resilience to your skill-jacking racket. If you "re-direct" low passengers, the risk is that many of them may not have "useful" skills and everyone you take is another potential witness if you get caught. Strip out the brain and replace it with a cheapo bio-brain and they will have no memory to aide in a conviction.

You can press the more useless ones into robotically loyal service. They would be ideal for acquiring new Low Passengers as feedstock as they will have no desire to escape at that point and can be programmed with minimal knowledge of the rest of the operation, completely unsubtle cosmetic surgery (or plain mutilation) would prevent identification short of a DNA test*. If they have been transported far from their home, it is unlikely anyone would really be that bothered to spend the time or effort to find out who they might have been (local computer banks might theoretically hold that information but not for the trillions of sophonts even in a sector).

If you do get an unusual competent individual who was willing to go Low, then they are probably pretty desperate anyway and you could probably leverage that desperation to gain their broadly willing cooperation in selling them on to a customer (as an indentured worker rather than a slave).

A Zombie press-gang is a good random encounter to flex the combat skills and provide a bit of excitement without any negative implications. Killing even a biological robot is not the same as killing a sophont. No moral or legal implications and no dependents to seek revenge.

* DNA is not as unique an identifier in a population in the trillions as it is in a population of millions. Even one in a million coincidences become unmanageable if there are a million such coincidences. It is useful as evidence for verification, less so for identification.

 

[swordtart]

Rereading the preceding section on Androids it seems that the cost per base slot is also multiplied by 3 so it looks like the body part of the Zombie would make up the majority of the cost at KCr96.

Zombie (TL11)
Size 5 Biological Robot (basic) - KCr96
Basic (Labourer) - TL10 Biological Brain - KCr12
Default Suite (Visual Spectrum Sensor, Voder Speaker, Auditory Sensor, Wireless Datalink, Drone Interface) - KCr0
Olfactory Sensor - KCr3
Transceiver 50km (enhanced) - Cr750

Total KCr 111.75, so rounding to 100 would be logical.

I am not sure why the Zombie has only 3 Spare Slots, it should be 4, so there could be some other factors involved or it could just be a typo.

Since they are basic biorobots they are not going to be able to pass themselves off as sophonts much of the time, so the justification for building a biological robot with the limited capability of the Zombie is unclear.

Unless you can find a free body the Zombie is not at all cost effective. You would be far better building cheap clones or just non-biological labour droids (at KCr5 each).

Even if you could save the KCr96 for the body and trim off some of the more exotic equipment (do you need a built-in transceiver of that range and a sense of smell may be a luxury), just the basic biological brain is still more expensive than alternatives.

The only value in my mind is the actual deterrence from your population knowing this is what happens to criminals/dissidents. That might be worth a few credits, but not KCr100.

Just buy a much more capable labour droid and drape it in the flayed skin of executed criminals instead

 

[StellarVenture]

Rereading the preceding section on Androids it seems that the cost per base slot is also multiplied by 3 so it looks like the body part of the Zombie would make up the majority of the cost at KCr96.

Zombie (TL11)
Size 5 Biological Robot (basic) - KCr96
Basic (Labourer) - TL10 Biological Brain - KCr12
Default Suite (Visual Spectrum Sensor, Voder Speaker, Auditory Sensor, Wireless Datalink, Drone Interface) - KCr0
Olfactory Sensor - KCr3
Transceiver 50km (enhanced) - Cr750

Total KCr 111.75, so rounding to 100 would be logical.

I am not sure why the Zombie has only 3 Spare Slots, it should be 4, so there could be some other factors involved or it could just be a typo.

Since they are basic biorobots they are not going to be able to pass themselves off as sophonts much of the time, so the justification for building a biological robot with the limited capability of the Zombie is unclear.

Unless you can find a free body the Zombie is not at all cost effective. You would be far better building cheap clones or just non-biological labour droids (at KCr5 each).

Even if you could save the KCr96 for the body and trim off some of the more exotic equipment (do you need a built-in transceiver of that range and a sense of smell may be a luxury), just the basic biological brain is still more expensive than alternatives.

The only value in my mind is the actual deterrence from your population knowing this is what happens to criminals/dissidents. That might be worth a few credits, but not KCr100.

Just buy a much more capable labour droid and drape it in the flayed skin of executed criminals instead

Very much ya, this sums up why I felt I had to be missing something. Especially as they feel very much like a budget approach to make a labour "drone" but it doesn't cost like a budget version.