Questions re Grenades

[BuShips]

There may not be smart grenades, but there are smart soldiers. All this has become redundant.

The only problem with the rules is the vagueness about who the grenades are used, not the way the FZ works. I got nothing more to add.

True, as according to Darwin combining grenades and all types of soldiers, you would be left with only smart soldiers after awhile. :roll:

 

[cordas]

There may not be smart grenades, but there are smart soldiers. All this has become redundant.

The only problem with the rules is the vagueness about who the grenades are used, not the way the FZ works. I got nothing more to add.

True, as according to Darwin combining grenades and all types of soldiers, you would be left with only smart soldiers after awhile. :roll:

*LOL* @ Bu.

Sorry TOS but I don't see the use of the FZ regarding grenades as redundant. How can you have your guys mixed with your opponents and use grenades, and catch all of his models in the FZ, but none of your own?

 

[BuShips]

Cordas, this may be yet another case where you may need to shrug and go with it as a game and not drag reality into it. The same ignorance of friendly fire in close-quarters fighting that the rules already state can be applied here, as both automatic fire and grenades when in "mixed company" would in reality be a bad mix.

I agree that it doesn't make sense, but the game does not force you to drop your grenades within your own squad. You could indeed play it more conservative and "smart" like TOS is suggesting. Because of their small size, remember that grenades do not have the room to print warnings on them like claymores do- "This side toward enemy". I've always loved that claymores had that small kindness imprinted on them :wink:.

 

[cordas]

Yup it does look that way Bu, we could argue all day about the difference between automatic fire in close proximity and that of grenades going off. However its one of those little things that could be easily fixed in a FAQ.

 

[BuShips]

Yup it does look that way Bu, we could argue all day about the difference between automatic fire in close proximity and that of grenades going off. However its one of those little things that could be easily fixed in a FAQ.

Yeah, I think that it could be included in a FAQ, as that way there is something said on the matter specifically, either way.

 

[Lorcan Nagle]

If it is suppose to be used in the same action, then call it what it is. A special shoot action (THROW). Just like you have in the Air phase a special move action (LAND), or a special shoot action (BOMB).

Either that or if it is intended to be readied before throwing, then make the ready action SPECIAL in that it does not provoke a reaction.

The word ready should only be used as a action to prepare something. That way there is no confusion.

It's a throwback to SST, where Ready actions were often used for psychic powers and MI traits and training.

 

[Bede]

One more thing.

Everyone seems to be concluding that grenades can only be used at targets that occupy buildings.

While the grenade rules are in a portion of the book dealing with Structures, I didn't see anything in the rules that limit their use to targets in buildings, and I can't think of any reason why this should be so.

So, can you use grenades against a target outside of a building?

 

[cordas]

If it is suppose to be used in the same action, then call it what it is. A special shoot action (THROW). Just like you have in the Air phase a special move action (LAND), or a special shoot action (BOMB).

Either that or if it is intended to be readied before throwing, then make the ready action SPECIAL in that it does not provoke a reaction.

The word ready should only be used as a action to prepare something. That way there is no confusion.

It's a throwback to SST, where Ready actions were often used for psychic powers and MI traits and training.

Ahhh I had forgotten about that, as we tend to not use psychic powers in our games. I just wish that MGP "read the rules as written" had payed a little more attention to what they had written and made sure it was crystal clear.

 

[lastbesthope]

So, can you use grenades against a target outside of a building?

No, targets inside buildings only. I checked with Matt for the recent Mongoose BF:Evo tournament.

LBH

 

[Valen is my name]

so you cant use grenades outside of buildings? sounds like two changes need t be made:

1. grenades attack anyone in the burst radius

2. grenades can be used anywhere

 

[Lorcan Nagle]

If it is suppose to be used in the same action, then call it what it is. A special shoot action (THROW). Just like you have in the Air phase a special move action (LAND), or a special shoot action (BOMB).

Either that or if it is intended to be readied before throwing, then make the ready action SPECIAL in that it does not provoke a reaction.

The word ready should only be used as a action to prepare something. That way there is no confusion.

It's a throwback to SST, where Ready actions were often used for psychic powers and MI traits and training.

Ahhh I had forgotten about that, as we tend to not use psychic powers in our games. I just wish that MGP "read the rules as written" had payed a little more attention to what they had written and made sure it was crystal clear.

A minimum complexity fix would be to add a "special" action type - to cover the stuff that would take a ready to do, rather than a ready and then a subsequent action.

 

[SickBunny]

One more thing.

Everyone seems to be concluding that grenades can only be used at targets that occupy buildings.

While the grenade rules are in a portion of the book dealing with Structures, I didn't see anything in the rules that limit their use to targets in buildings, and I can't think of any reason why this should be so.

So, can you use grenades against a target outside of a building?

In the modern warfare, units Very rarely deploy grenades in open ground as the majority of their deterrent these days is not so much the shrapnel but the explosive/stunning effect of pressure/flash/noise... open space negates all of these where as closed spaces like buildings, rooms, bunkers, the sort amplify the effect tenfold... A person can survive a grenade going off by their side in the open, even though they will be lacerated but they will Not survive the same in an enclosed space without a wall or furniture in between (or just blind luck, these things do happen...).

I think that the rules as set for grenades work perfectly for what they are used in reality by modern armed forces. If you catch the enemy in the open, you deploy your assault rifle that can guarantee a kill or debilitation where as a grenade is just sheer luck, at best, catching the guy with shrapnel, at worst just staggering them.

The only place where I might push their use further is an emplacement like sandbags and the sort. An obviously enclosed space that is there for defensive purposes but lacking the obvious characteristics of a building as conventional explosives are oft used for clearing out such locations.

 

[lastbesthope]

A minimum complexity fix would be to add a "special" action type - to cover the stuff that would take a ready to do, rather than a ready and then a subsequent action.

Surely that adds an unecessary action type when you could just say that such and such is carried out by performing a Ready action.

LBH

 

[cordas]

A minimum complexity fix would be to add a "special" action type - to cover the stuff that would take a ready to do, rather than a ready and then a subsequent action.

Surely that adds an unecessary action type when you could just say that such and such is carried out by performing a Ready action.

LBH

Yeah it does, but it could also have been worded better. I dunno, Grenades can be thrown with a ready action (this will only count as one action.).

 

[BuShips]

Yeah it does, but it could also have been worded better. I dunno, Grenades can be thrown with a ready action (this will only count as one action.).

Either that, or rename "Shoot" to "Use" :wink:.

 

[cordas]

If MGP had wanted to do that they could have just said you use a shoot action to throw grenades... They obviously had some reason not to say that, I am sure i could work out what reason but its late and my brain is just coasting, and I don't want to wake it up.

 

[BuShips]

If MGP had wanted to do that they could have just said you use a shoot action to throw grenades... They obviously had some reason not to say that, I am sure i could work out what reason but its late and my brain is just coasting, and I don't want to wake it up.

No problem. 'See' you tomorrow, heh.

 

[cordas]

Probably something to do with keeping shoot as just that. Nice and simple and no arguements or distractions. There are 3 different actions, move and shoot. Anything else falls under the catch all of ready and will have its own special rules.... Oh and there is reaction, but that ain't an action, it just allows you to take certain actions. Hence you won't be able to do things like use grenades as a reaction..... maybe.

Hows that for a mildly refreshed brain

On other questions, how do you allocate DD from grenades, do you roll for each model seperatly, or do you allocate from closest to the attacking unit, or from the center point of the FZ. I can think of arguements for all 3..... Probably doing each model individualy the way we do casualty rolls from troops being blown out of transports, and from artillery will cause the least hassle....

 

[The Old Soldier]

I believe the grenade attack is per unit. It is not based on the number of models, but rather if you have at least one model in range. Otherwise it seems to be too powerful.

All models are attacked within the FZ without any bonuses. Plus the building is hit with 4D6 DD. Seems over the top for one grenade to cover all that area. (I have handled and used grenades and they do not have that big a spread.) SO I'm thinking it represents the UNIT tossing in a bucket load of grenades into one area of resistance.

 

[lastbesthope]

If MGP had wanted to do that they could have just said you use a shoot action to throw grenades... They obviously had some reason not to say that, I am sure i could work out what reason but its late and my brain is just coasting, and I don't want to wake it up.

Possibly the one I mentioned on the forst page of this thread, making Grenades be a consequence of a Ready action rather than a Shoot means that they can not be used as a reaction.

LBH