Questions re Grenades

[The Old Soldier]

If MGP had wanted to do that they could have just said you use a shoot action to throw grenades... They obviously had some reason not to say that, I am sure i could work out what reason but its late and my brain is just coasting, and I don't want to wake it up.

Possibly the one I mentioned on the forst page of this thread, making Grenades be a consequence of a Ready action rather than a Shoot means that they can not be used as a reaction.

LBH

LBH, has the following two questions been asked about grenades?

1. Are grenades throw per model or as a unit? (I assume per unit) since the prerequist is one model within 6" to use grenades.

2. Two do the grenades themselves have a range? It states within 6", but then goes on to say the FZ is placed in the building. Some buildings are quite large. I know that a grenade still would need LOS to the target to be thrown. (I assume they mean't the model has a 6" range to the building or within the building)

3. Does the ready action, count as a special action (aka ready (throw)) or is it like other ready actions?

If MP can answer those three questions soundly, then I can added it to a FAQ/clarification page.

 

[cordas]

just to add to TOS' list.

4. What happens to friendly models from the firing unit that are caught in the FZ.

5. Does the entire squad need LOS to the center of the FZ, do any models need to have LOS to the center of the FZ. As infantrty can only see 1" into a building......

 

[jdrew]

This is very similar to the Aerial Deployment special rule. You take a ready action that sets up no special action. It seems that the ready action is the special action. Could be the same with Grenades.

 

[dyssnowman]

Here are the answers based on the how the rules are worded. I tried to quote the relevant lines and include the page numbers so that you can tell exactly where I am getting this information. By the way, this is all from the Advanced Rulesbook.

1. Are grenades throw per model or as a unit? (I assume per unit) since the prerequist is one model within 6" to use grenades.

The whole unit takes the Ready action, but only one model must be within 6" of a structure or within a structure to perform the action. The actual number of models throwing the grenades does not matter as the grenades will only assign D6 damage dice regardless of the number of models that actually can throw them.

2. Do the grenades themselves have a range? It states within 6", but then goes on to say the FZ is placed in the building. Some buildings are quite large. I know that a grenade still would need LOS to the target to be thrown. (I assume they mean't the model has a 6" range to the building or within the building)

It reads "It must be either within 6" of a structure or inside one." (pg. 25) This means that by the rules if you are inside a structure you can use grenades regardless of the size of the structure. The 6" is only taken into consideration if you are outside of the structure throwing a grenade into it.

3. Does the ready action, count as a special action (aka ready (throw)) or is it like other ready actions?

"What a Ready action actually does will be covered by the special rule it is using, usually found in the relevant scenarion or on a unit card." (pg. 21) In this case, the Ready action is using the grenades. (pg. 25)

4. What happens to friendly models from the firing unit that are caught in the FZ.

Under the rules for Shooting, it states that "a model may never be caught within a Fire Zone that it helped create itself..." (pg. 17). However, the rules for Grenades state"Every model within the Fire Zone will have Damage Dice D6 rolled against it, even if not in Line of Sight, and will not receive the benefit of Cover or Obscured Line of Sight." (pg. 25) In this instance, I believe that the special rules for Grenades (in this case that every model within the FZ being assigned Damage Dice) would override the normal rules so that anyone with the FZ will be hit.

5. Does the entire squad need LOS to the center of the FZ, do any models need to have LOS to the center of the FZ. As infantrty can only see 1" into a building......

"A Fire Zone is created as normal, but with a 3" radius." (pg. 25) which means that at least one model must have LoS to the center of the FZ. If the infantry is outside the building, the center of the FZ could only be placed up to 1" into the building. Any models within the FZ would still be affected, however, as the grenade FZ does not require LoS to assign damage dice.

 

[BuShips]

Under the rules for Shooting, it states that "a model may never be caught within a Fire Zone that it helped create itself..." (pg. 17). However, the rules for Grenades state"Every model within the Fire Zone will have Damage Dice D6 rolled against it, even if not in Line of Sight, and will not receive the benefit of Cover or Obscured Line of Sight." (pg. 25) In this instance, I believe that the special rules for Grenades (in this case that every model within the FZ being assigned Damage Dice) would override the normal rules so that anyone with the FZ will be hit.

Great job on breaking these questions down. I'm still a number of days away from getting my rulebook so I've been curious on this topic.

While MGP might have meant to say "Every enemy model within the Fire Zone will have Damage Dice D6 rolled against it...", they clearly did not include that word. Thus, your interpretation is following the rules as written.

 

[dyssnowman]

While MGP might have meant to say "Every enemy model within the Fire Zone will have Damage Dice D6 rolled against it...", they clearly did not include that word. Thus, your interpretation is following the rules as written.

Actually, I think that they said exactly what they meant. A grenade is an explosion and would affect anyone within it's blast radius, which I think is the reason the grenade rules specifically say that every model is affected.

Great job on breaking these questions down.

Thanks.

 

[BuShips]

Oh, I wanted to add a personal thought on grenades within buildings that has not been covered/discussed. I have no problem with a grenade being tossed from the outside into a ground floor level or even a second/third level, but I'd think on higher buildings (I've got some) I'd restrict vertical grenade attacks to that 6" distance (it's already in the rule). Additionally, I'd allow models inside a structure to attack the floors directly above and below (using staircases abstractly as the method of access) but not more than one level different (common sense).

 

[BuShips]

While MGP might have meant to say "Every enemy model within the Fire Zone will have Damage Dice D6 rolled against it...", they clearly did not include that word. Thus, your interpretation is following the rules as written.

Actually, I think that they said exactly what they meant. A grenade is an explosion and would affect anyone within it's blast radius, which I think is the reason the grenade rules specifically say that every model is affected.

Great job on breaking these questions down.

Thanks.

Yeah, it's possible. :wink: The thing is that there are places in the rules that the word "enemy" should have been inserted and was not.

 

[The Old Soldier]

Snowman, I agree with every answer you gave except #4.

That one is just wrong. It is counter to every FZ example given in the rulebook. With the range being only up to 6" That would mean any model closer than 6" would take damage including the one that Threw the Grenade. Being a ex-soldier that handled grenades that seem silly. Like I said there may be no such thing as a smart grenade, but there is such a thing as a smart soldier.

Say you were next to a bunker, the soldier would cook off a few seconds of the grenade and slam it down thru the MG port, then duck back so not to be caught in the blast.

If this was MP intent, then fine, but it sucks big.

 

[dyssnowman]

Actually, the Fire Zone created by a grenade is only 3" in radius (pg. 25), so as long as you are more than 3" away you are safe. 3" in the game translates into roughly 15' in the real world. Being an ex-soldier, would you say that this is a safe distance to throw a grenade? I think that it would be, but I have no real world experience with such things so I am curious about your opinion on this.

 

[BuShips]

Snowman, I agree with every answer you gave except #4.

That one is just wrong. It is counter to every FZ example given in the rulebook. With the range being only up to 6" That would mean any model closer than 6" would take damage including the one that Threw the Grenade. Being a ex-soldier that handled grenades that seem silly. Like I said there may be no such thing as a smart grenade, but there is such a thing as a smart soldier.

Say you were next to a bunker, the soldier would cook off a few seconds of the grenade and slam it down thru the MG port, then duck back so not to be caught in the blast.

If this was MP intent, then fine, but it sucks big.

TOS said it better than me. I was just saying that logically if you threw a grenade into your own FZ it should hurt all close-aboard and that the rules seemed to support this, but why would you want to do that?

Tossing a grenade into a building window at least should hold most of the blast to the interior, but if you were inside you'd want the grenade FZ to be more than 3" from the nearest of your own troops to it.

If indeed MGP was indicating that the standard FZ rules were to be used then they should have included the additional word "enemy" in the sentence to make it abundantly clear.

 

[dyssnowman]

If indeed MGP was indicating that the standard FZ rules were to be used then they should have included the additional word "enemy" in the sentence to make it abundantly clear.

Which is my point exactly. The word was not included which seems to indicate that grenades are an exception to the standard rules.

Tossing a grenade into a building window at least should hold most of the blast to the interior, but if you were inside you'd want the grenade FZ to be more than 3" from the nearest of your own troops to it.

Ah ha! I see what you and TOS are saying now. Thanks for clarifying. I was simply thinking of soliders within the building using grenades, not throwing them in from outside. In this case I can definitely see limiting the FZ according to the exterior wall, as it should be strong enough to contain the blast in almost all cases.

 

[The Old Soldier]

I have also used grenades IN a structure. It depends on the structure itself. Many are strong enough to be able to be in one room or a hallway and toss the hot potato into another room or hallway, or from downstairs to upstairs.

I believe the models in the unit using the Grenade should NOT be penalized if they are in the FZ. The toy buildings we use are just empty shells. Real buildings are a completely different beast. Treat them the same as any other FZ. Why do people have to believe the company could have slipped in its wording. The sure did with Fedayeen IEDs.

MP has made a few mistakes, all companies will. It is the idea that they couldn't have that bothers me. All in all they have done a very good job, but please don't tell me they MEANT grenades to work that way. It is counterintuitive.

The following were things that had to be clarified because it wasn't caught in the proof reading.

1. IED must be placed on a ENEMY vehicle.
2. When you add options to your units you add before you use percentages.
3. This grenade issue.
4. The size issue for emplacements. Since there is a cost, there should be a limit to the number of models that a emplacement could hold.

Not a huge number which shows MP did a decent job.

Now I'm not a big fan of some of the wonky rulings but that is not the issue.

 

[BuShips]

Which is my point exactly. The word was not included which seems to indicate that grenades are an exception to the standard rules.

That is my point and you cannot have it :twisted:. Since my mother taught me to share, I'll take that under consideration :lol:.

I'm not necessarily on a different side here. I did however wish to point out that you (or me) cannot prove a negative without the authors chiming in. The example that I was alluding to above is indeed what TOS refers to below, in that as the rules are written the Fedayeen player can place IEDs on his own Size 2 vehicle because the word "enemy" is not present in the rule. The word's inclusion in that example would have clarified the issue.

Why do people have to believe the company could have slipped in its wording. The sure did with Fedayeen IEDs.

The IED rule states:

"These may be placed on any model of Size 2 or more with a Charge Action".

Now here is a case study where the rules according to Matt's interpretation could have been helped by the inclusion of "any enemy model" which modifies the rule meaning to indicate that the Fedayeen cannot place an IED on a friendly vehicle. While Matt has used other rules to counter the interpretation that is written (with help from TOS), it has not been clarified in official errata yet.

My point above was to compare and contrast these two areas in the rules and say that adding the additional word "enemy" to either/both of these rules can help to clarify or reverse the perceived meaning.

 

[The Old Soldier]

The Old Soldier wrote:
Why do people have to believe the company could have slipped in its wording. The sure did with Fedayeen IEDs.

BuShip, I am sure glad you could understand that mess I wrote. It should have read.. Why do people have to believe the company couldn't have slipped in its wording. They sure did with the Fedayeen IEDs.

Kudo's to you my friend. :lol:

 

[BuShips]

The Old Soldier wrote:
Why do people have to believe the company could have slipped in its wording. The sure did with Fedayeen IEDs.

BuShip, I am sure glad you could understand that mess I wrote. It should have read.. Why do people have to believe the company couldn't have slipped in its wording. They sure did with the Fedayeen IEDs.

Kudo's to you my friend. :lol:

I couldn't have done it, except for my vast experience reading posts by Mr Evil. :lol:

 

[dyssnowman]

I believe the models in the unit using the Grenade should NOT be penalized if they are in the FZ. The toy buildings we use are just empty shells.

I think that this is the point really. The building rules are meant as an abstract way of handling the situation, and thus the grenades rules are meant as a abstration as well. Yes, in a real world situation you could throw it into that room without being affected by it. In this case, however, I tend to view it as the blast of a tank cannon. Any models within the blast radius are assigned a damage die, regardless of whether they are friend or foe.

Why do people have to believe the company could not have slipped in its wording.

MP has made a few mistakes, all companies will. It is the idea that they couldn't have that bothers me.

Umm, actually I am not disputing that fact. What I am trying to do is look at the issues that you and others have brought up and find the most logical solution based on the rules as written. Why? Because I also work as a demonstrator for Mongoose, and as such it is my job is to show people how to play the game with the rules that are written, not with a bunch of house rules that I created.

Hopefully this helps you understand where I am coming from.

 

[BuShips]

dyssnowman, I think that you would agree that it's about time for an FAQ/errata for the game, based upon the very few rules issues that have been discussed here. I'm hoping that MGP has someone studying the relevant Rulesmasters questions and comments from the general discussions here and on evocommand.com.

The BFE community does seem to be giving the game a good workout. With just a few exceptions the rules do look very solid. The grenade determination could end up going either way, as the 3" range difference is half the radius of a normal FZ. I can live with it either way, actually.

 

[cordas]

I believe the models in the unit using the Grenade should NOT be penalized if they are in the FZ. The toy buildings we use are just empty shells.

I think that this is the point really. The building rules are meant as an abstract way of handling the situation, and thus the grenades rules are meant as a abstration as well. Yes, in a real world situation you could throw it into that room without being affected by it. In this case, however, I tend to view it as the blast of a tank cannon. Any models within the blast radius are assigned a damage die, regardless of whether they are friend or foe.

Thats one abstraction TOS, the other is you have models mixed together and can use grenades safely even if your model is between the center of the FZ and an enemy model....

Personaly I would say that grendades can always be thrown upto 6" within buildings, models do NOT need LOS to the center of the FZ (after all its perfectly easy to bounce a grenade round a corner or down stairs, or chuck the grenade through a doorway and hide around the wall out of the way) and ANY models caught in the FZ will be hit. This way the attacking player will allways have the option to place the FZ with no friendly models in, and if for some reason he chooses not to do this then his own models will pay for it.

Yes its a cheesy abstraction of the shooting rules, but hey we aren't using the shooting rules.

Using a tenis ball I am able to bounce it from my study to every other room in my house.... (well the kitchen took a few atempts and I am sure it was more fluke than skill, it did have to go through my sitting room 1st).

 

[Arcadia]

I believe the models in the unit using the Grenade should NOT be penalized if they are in the FZ. The toy buildings we use are just empty shells.

Personaly I would say that grendades can always be thrown upto 6" within buildings, models do NOT need LOS to the center of the FZ (after all its perfectly easy to bounce a grenade round a corner or down stairs, or chuck the grenade through a doorway and hide around the wall out of the way) and ANY models caught in the FZ will be hit. This way the attacking player will allways have the option to place the FZ with no friendly models in, and if for some reason he chooses not to do this then his own models will pay for it.

If all models are attacked in the FZ but are allowed to have the cover bonus the model outside the window will be pretty safer than the models inside (the attack is taken from the FZ center not the model), by allowing the cover bonus and let them attack all models friendly or not, it may be more realistic use of grenades and making them an option not just in buildings.

Arcadia.