d(sqrt(-1))
Mongoose
waiwode said:
Well, it's pretty easy - 10% of your to hit chance, so you don't really have to think about it at all.
Mark
Questions about skills over 100% & Critical Hits
- Thread starter WildHealer
- Start date
Well, it's pretty easy - 10% of your to hit chance, so you don't really have to think about it at all.
Mark
Itto said:
So If I understand right the attack roll is unopposed, and if successful the defender may parry, which is opposed, so the attacker rolls again, only this the second (opposed parry) roll being at half if his skill is over 100?
If that is correct does the defender have to declare his parry before the attack roll or does he only need to spend a reaction if the initial attack roll succeeds?
d(sqrt(-1))
Mongoose
Itto said:
??? Wow, are you sure about this? My reading of the rules doesn't imply that at all. If you attack someone unopposed then you just roll your skill to see if you hit, if you attack someone who uses a Reaction to oppose, then you both roll at the same time and compare results, highest success wins, just like Pendragon. I haven't seen any mention of a reroll. Is that how the demos were run?
Mark
Rurik said:
The initial attack is not effected by the Very High Skill Rule as the inital attack in not opposed, so Ruric would skill have 150% to hit and 15% to crit.
The parry/dodge is opposed.
The defender only has to make a roll if the attacker succeeds, and the defender has a reaction left with which to parry.
If folks are reading this without having read the rules its a bit odd, but it works nicley.
d(sqrt(-1))
Mongoose
As another thought on this, in the example on p21 of the footrace, there is no initial roll, then an opposed roll, it's just opposed rolls from the start.
Mark
Mark
d(sqrt(-1))
Mongoose
Rurik said:
He got better!
Mark
d(sqrt(-1)) said:
That was how it was played in the demo, also if you look at the parry contest table, the result of attacker fail, defender fail results in "Attack succeeds as normal" which only makes sense if the attack is already a success.
Also in the parry contest (just to re-enforce) defender fail, attacker crit "Attack succeeds and becomes critical hit"
So the attacker will end up having to roll twice if his opponent decides to and is able to do something about the hit, like parry or dodge. But only the second roll would be halved (under the Very High Skill Rule) if the attacker was over 100% as the parry/dodge is an opposed roll.
d(sqrt(-1))
Mongoose
Itto said:
I've just reread the rules, and I can't see anywhere where it says that it's resolved like this - can you give me a page number or somesuch?
p47 says:
1 - Making the Attack: attacker rolls d100 and compares vs skill. If <= skill, then a hit. If > skill, missed.
2 - Target Reaction: If target has Reaction left, attack may be opposed. Target may attempt to dodge or parry as they wish, see p49
3 - Damage Resolution: If attack successful, damage resolved...
p49 says:
"Reactions are declared after the trigger event has occurred but before it's effects are applied. For instance, the trigger event for a dodge or parry is a successful attack upon the character; the dodge or parry resolution occurrs after the attack has been determined as a hit but before any damage is allocated"
Mark
cheers,
Mark
d(sqrt(-1))
Mongoose
Itto said:
But haven't the tables been mentioned as being in error for that entry?
Hm, ok, well I'm quite prepared to believe you, especially as that's how the demos were run, but there is no way I would get that from the text in the book at all.
cheers,
Mark
d(sqrt(-1))
Mongoose
Itto said:
But that seems really inconsistent - why a special case for combat?
Mark
WildHealer
Mongoose
When I first read this I couldn't believe it, but I checked in the Combat Example on pp60-61 and this is indeed what's happening!
Now I'm completely bewildered. So, first you make your Weapon Skill Roll to attack. Then, your opponent elects to parry or dodge, and so you have to make your Weapon Skill Roll again, regardless of your original success, to - do what? Defeat the attempt to Parry? Presumably... and then, you reference that second roll vs the attempted parry roll on the Parry Matrix on p51 to find out if your initial (attack) roll was successful or not.
A few points:
i.) This is NOT a simplification! It takes longer.
ii.) The 100%+ halving problem STILL exists - it's now just part of the opposed parry / dodge roll rather than the initial attack roll.
iii.) I don't understand what "Attack succeeds as normal" means as a result of the Opposed Parry roll if my initial Attack Roll was a Critical. Does my "normal success" means I still have a Critical, or am I "bumped down" to a normal success? If the latter, that seems weird given that it's the result on a Failed Parry roll! Also, what does "Attack succeeds and becomes critical hit" mean if my original Attack Roll was a critical hit anyway? Is it "no change"? Or is this the ONLY way to roll a critical (ie you have to basically roll it twice)?
iv.) Some of these results are absurd. Example: I make a Critical Attack Roll, and then Fail my second Attack roll in the opposed Parry Check, which the Opponent criticals. Result: my attack fails, and the Parrying opponent gets a riposte. Huh? What on earth was the point of the Critical Attack roll in the first place? Basically, the distinction between Critical and Normal Attack roll results are meaningless if the opponent then elects to dodge or parry.
v.) Why the additional roll at all? Why not simply have Attack Attempt vs Parry Attempt as the opposed contest? That would avoid the "hey you've succeeded oops no you haven't" situation that will crop up all the time here. Also it completely breaks the "Opposed Tests" rule on p20, ie Stealth vs Perception. Unless I have to make one Stealth roll first (at 120% for example), and then another one at 60% to oppose the opponent's Perception attempt?
I think I'll back off from this thread, as my comments seem to be just flurries of negativity! I think I've said enough to be going on with... :?
Cheers all,
Sarah
This sort of thing always amazes me, in real life melee combat attacks don't tend to miss at all, you try to parry/dodge long before you see exactly where the attack might be going. If you actually waited to see if it was going to hit then generally it already has and it's too late to do anything other than say ouch and cry.
I know it's trying to bring structure to a chaotic event but it just feels artificial, but then again so do 90% of rpg combat systems.
Vadrus
d(sqrt(-1))
Mongoose
Vadrus said:
Sure, that's why it seems to make more sense to both roll at the same time...
Mark
The two rolls is how the Mongoose guys did the demo. When you read the effects of the Dodge and Parry contest it also only makes sense with a second opposed roll.
Also if you read the Example of Combat on page 61, starting at "Bruka(16) acts next....)
You will see that Brucka hits, Amn uses a Reaction of dodge, then Bruaka succeeds (again) and Amn succeeds.
The example of combat is not very clear, far too many situational modifers going on.
As I said before, it works well and fast and will not fall apart when someone starts going Fanatic.
Hope this helps folks.
Also if you read the Example of Combat on page 61, starting at "Bruka(16) acts next....)
You will see that Brucka hits, Amn uses a Reaction of dodge, then Bruaka succeeds (again) and Amn succeeds.
The example of combat is not very clear, far too many situational modifers going on.
As I said before, it works well and fast and will not fall apart when someone starts going Fanatic.
Hope this helps folks.
