The section about untrained skills on page 83 is a little confusing. Is this rule designed to allow anyone who is untrained at a 'trained only' skill (like tumble) to roll a check, with a max result of 10? Or is the intention to limit untrained use of skills that can be used untrained to a max result of 10? I'm leaning towards the first theory, since the second would mean that people with 0 ranks in climb could never even climb a tree. But I'm asking here just to be sure.
Question about untrained skills
- Thread starter Turim
- Start date
Jason Durall
Mongoose
Turim said:
I agree that it is potentially vague, but I would imagine that the intent was that the "result" is the check roll + any modifiers.
A normal person could climb a tree, if they roll well, and it is a tree of Average (DC 10) difficulty. Or they could Take 10 and automatically succeed.
Hmm, missed that one. That really is interesting.
Ok, first off a "untrained" skill is any skill in which you do not have at least one rank. If you have not bought any ranks in climb then climb is an "untrained" skill for you. Some skills are marked with the descriptor "Trained Only". Those skills you cannot use at all unless you have at least one rank (making it a trained skill for you). You cannot atempt to Decipher Script without at least some tranning (note that some Trained Only skills, such as Sleight of hand, allow an untrained person to make a attempt for some limited uses of the skill. Those skills have a special notation in their entry, if there is no entry for an Untrained use then you cannot use it at all). All this is noted on p 83 under the Skill Descriptions heading.
So, with that in mind it seems to me that the rule for untrained skills is that, if the skill is one you can used untrained then you make a check normally and if your check is higher than 10 you treat it as a 10, but if the skill is Trained Only then you still cannot use it at all (unless the skill description specifically says you can).
Example: Bob the barbarian has 0 ranks in climb but an 18 Str, he has 0 ranks in Decipher Script (trained only) and a 11 Int, he also has 0 ranks in Sleight (trained only) and a 12 Dex.
Bob wants to make a climb check. He rolls a 13 and adds his Str mod for a total of 18, but he has no tranning so the result is treated as though it were a 10.
Next Bob wants to attempt to read some ancient runes but Decipher Script is a Trained Only skill so Bob cannot even make the attempt (note that he does not fail the check, so he draws no false information from the runes, he never even gets to attempt the check in the first place)
Finally Bob wants to palm a coin sized object. Even though he has no ranks in Sleight the skill description specifically allows him to attempt this. He rolls an 11 and adds his Dex mod for a total of 12, but again this result is treated as a 10 which is still enough to allow him to succede.
Or at least thats the way I understand the rules.
Ok, first off a "untrained" skill is any skill in which you do not have at least one rank. If you have not bought any ranks in climb then climb is an "untrained" skill for you. Some skills are marked with the descriptor "Trained Only". Those skills you cannot use at all unless you have at least one rank (making it a trained skill for you). You cannot atempt to Decipher Script without at least some tranning (note that some Trained Only skills, such as Sleight of hand, allow an untrained person to make a attempt for some limited uses of the skill. Those skills have a special notation in their entry, if there is no entry for an Untrained use then you cannot use it at all). All this is noted on p 83 under the Skill Descriptions heading.
So, with that in mind it seems to me that the rule for untrained skills is that, if the skill is one you can used untrained then you make a check normally and if your check is higher than 10 you treat it as a 10, but if the skill is Trained Only then you still cannot use it at all (unless the skill description specifically says you can).
Example: Bob the barbarian has 0 ranks in climb but an 18 Str, he has 0 ranks in Decipher Script (trained only) and a 11 Int, he also has 0 ranks in Sleight (trained only) and a 12 Dex.
Bob wants to make a climb check. He rolls a 13 and adds his Str mod for a total of 18, but he has no tranning so the result is treated as though it were a 10.
Next Bob wants to attempt to read some ancient runes but Decipher Script is a Trained Only skill so Bob cannot even make the attempt (note that he does not fail the check, so he draws no false information from the runes, he never even gets to attempt the check in the first place)
Finally Bob wants to palm a coin sized object. Even though he has no ranks in Sleight the skill description specifically allows him to attempt this. He rolls an 11 and adds his Dex mod for a total of 12, but again this result is treated as a 10 which is still enough to allow him to succede.
Or at least thats the way I understand the rules.
Thanks for the answers. While I agree that the wording of the rule supports your view, argo, I still can't help but think that whoever wrote this made a mistake. Especially considering the amount of mistakes in this book already. On page 81 there is another section about untrained skill checks. These two sections could have been easily combined, but still they are separated. Also, the text on page 83 states "Any character may attempt any task", which seems to indicate an untrained character could roll a tumble check and get a max of 10 (although in this case it would not do him any good, since all the DC's are 15 or higher). A tree has a climb DC of 15, which makes it impossible for an untrained climber to climb it, using the literal interpretation of the rules. And a character with 0 ranks in heal could never stop a person from bleeding to death (DC 15).
GhostWolf69
Mongoose
My sister couldn't climb that tree at all. I guess she must have 0 Ranks then... since negative ranks don't exist... Fair in my book. So where is the problem? 
Come to think of it... kids in general probably get a +10 "brat bonus" to all climb checks. And you loose it the same day you turn 20. After the age of 30 you probably start taking penalties instead... cause I've never seen an old woman climb a tree either...
/wolf
Come to think of it... kids in general probably get a +10 "brat bonus" to all climb checks. And you loose it the same day you turn 20. After the age of 30 you probably start taking penalties instead... cause I've never seen an old woman climb a tree either...
/wolf
Well, one thing this rule is going to do is really reinforce the idea that you should take at least 1 rank in many different skills. Which I think is good for Hyborean age adventurers. Conan wandered all over the globe and everywhere he went he seemed to learn a little something. Most of the other adventurers he met up with also seemed to be very self sufficent and broadly trained, or else they died swiftly! Plus with the ability to spend bonus points from Int on any skill the untrained rule shouldn't be too harsh.
Yeah, the more I think about it the more I think I like it. Heh heh, every PC had damn well better buy at least one rank in Heal, to say nothing of Climb and Swim :twisted:
Yeah, the more I think about it the more I think I like it. Heh heh, every PC had damn well better buy at least one rank in Heal, to say nothing of Climb and Swim :twisted:
Any official word about this rule (page 83) ?
The intent of the rule (as given in the "flavor text" before the actual rule) seems to be to enable characters to be more "heroic" and try any skill (even Trained Only skills).
While the rule, as written, actually limits PC skill use and forces them to take at least 1 rank in essential skills.
It would be great if someone at Mongoose could clarify the author's intent. At the very least, include this question in an updated FAQ or fix it in the second printing...
- thulsa
The intent of the rule (as given in the "flavor text" before the actual rule) seems to be to enable characters to be more "heroic" and try any skill (even Trained Only skills).
While the rule, as written, actually limits PC skill use and forces them to take at least 1 rank in essential skills.
It would be great if someone at Mongoose could clarify the author's intent. At the very least, include this question in an updated FAQ or fix it in the second printing...
- thulsa
My own interpretation of this is based off of the first line of Untrained Skills on page 83:
SO...
SO...
- If the skill is marked Usable Untrained, the character rolls the d20 and adds the appropriate ability score. The result is the result, even if it's above 10. This would allow those without ranks in Climb to climb trees, allow those without ranks in Heal to provide First Aid, etc.
- If the skill is marked Trained Only, the task can be attempted. Without Ranks, however, the combination of die roll + ability mod cannot exceed 10. Therefore, any task with a DC greater than 10 would automatically fail if the character is Untrained. This would allow those without ranks in Knowledge: Religion to at least know the names of the gods and the basic tenets of their faith (DC 5), or to allow someone without ranks in Open Lock to try to pick an old, poorly-designed lock (DC 10). Anything harder than that, however, requires training.
Hmm... Bombaatu, that's a darn nice interpretation there. That's much better than restricting characters by giving them a max result of 10 in all skills they don't have at least 1 rank in. I'm not sure it's the correct interpretation, but definitely a better alternative than as written.
TTFN,
Yokiboy
TTFN,
Yokiboy
