Question about Picts

MadDog

Mongoose
First, anyone in my campaign, dont bother reading further....some things were not meant for your eyes.....












Alright, here is the question:

How do you get the Picts to be effective in combat ? Even when ambushing players in armor, the Picts cant do much of anything. The lack of armor and the low AP weapons make it really difficult for the Picts to be effective in combat. The low level of the majority of the picts also makes it difficult to land a finesse hit with the hatchets.

Engaging in missle combat is even less fruitful due to the lack of finesse. The 1D8 hunting bows on average wont cut even light armor and helmits. Players are also usually better equipped with exotic bows.

An engagement the players fought (to my surprise - I thought they would run) slaughtered the Picts. In a meeting engagement starting at 90 feet, 20 Pict Barbarian-1 and 1 Barbarian-4 fought five 2nd level PCs. 10 of the Picts went down before a single Pc went down. This when the Pcs borked a lot of die rolls and used poor tactical choices. I was having the Picts flank, using the multiple opponents advantage and it did help some.

I suppose if some Picts had improved grapple, the numerical advantage would help. but none of them do (note: it would seem more logical to give the alligator tribe or bear tribe this...).

While you could even things up with the Picts luring players into traps, that is going to be pretty rare, at best.

You could use even more Picts, but that gets kind of silly. I suspect against armor using foes, the Picts should always finesse.

Mad Dog
 
I think your on the right track with grappling. Don't forget that you don't have to have the improved grapple feat to grapple, you just provoke an AOOP. As most character only get one a round if all four guys attempt a grapple or join in the outnumbered PC could be in trouble. Then once the grapple is going the character is flatfooted for opponents not in the grapple. It only take one of the picts to keep the character grappled. As grappling starts with an unarmed attack it seems reasonable that a character with improved unarmed feat could also start a grapple without provoking AOOP, he just doesnt get the +4 like you do with Improved grapple.
Once the PC is all tied up he is surrounded by other Picts who finesse attack.
The picts could also try bull rushing characters into streams.
Or surprise attacks against flat footed characters then fleeing faster than their armoured opponents can pursue. Hit and run tactics. Ganging up disproportionally against one character, ie maybe 8 of your 20 gang up on 1 PC while the rest hold off his friends.

A 90' starting distance is pretty big. Try ambushing the characters in the jungle, the Picts domain, dropping from trees, springing out of holes in the ground that sort of thing with them using stealth to get into a position to attack.

Does any of that help?
 
I like the grapple tactic, when you outnumber the players it works fairly well. Also, try grabbing a player's weapon when in combat, or a few sundering checks against armor. Keep in mind that when a PC falls, so does his (usually superior) weapon. A common pict tactic is to take trophies, so have your strongest pict pick up the great sword laying off in the bushes drooped by the fallen soldier, or whatever. That pict then becomes extra dangerous.

Also, in the time when Conan is king, it states that some picts are armed with bossonian bows, a very strong/dextrous pict sniping can be very dangerous.

SS
 
Don't forget that each Pict attacking a character after the first gets a cumulative +1 bonus to attack, also Picts can hold down a character and aid another to give one pict a +2 on a finesse hit (basically holding a piece of armour aside).

Do you have Across the Thunder River? It has a few tips on making Picts deadlier.

Also, you can impose a minimum of 1 point of damage for all hits regardless of damage reduction (to represent bruising, battering, et. al.) as an optional rule.

Remember that Picts are guerrilla fighters. They rush in on surprise (DV 10), finesse past armour, take a trophy if they can, then leave. They don't stick around toe-to-toe with armoured opponents unless they can seperate the opponent from any companions. They will attack at night, stealing up upon sleeping characters, past guards, steal weapons and slit throats. Characters may wake up to find other characters (PC or NPC) dead and most of the weapons gone.

My players are afraid of Picts and they won't wear armour in Pictland because one hapless Nordheimer found out that people don't need to run faster than the Picts to escape - they just need to run faster than the idiot in armour.
 
That's what I was going to suggest"page 181 - Multiple Opponents.

Once surrounded, have the first Picts try tp trip or grapple. In a surprise round, the PCs will be flat footed and so get no Parry or Dodge (page 151). They also cannot make attacks of opportunity, so this makes grappling easier. subsequent Picts make finesse attacks in that surprise round at the PCs lousy Defense (remember, no Parry or Dodge) and ought to be able to do some terrible damage.

Also remember that the "Picts on the Warpath" from the bestiary are just an example and you can alwyas add levels and classes to make them nastier. Make about 12 of them and make them all lvl1 thieves for a party of 3-4 lvl1 PCs. That's a really tough encounter in Conan, particularly since the sneak attacks will likely drop someone in the surprise round.

Want to get even more diabolical? Add a Sorcerer....
 
VincentDarlage said:
Also, you can impose a minimum of 1 point of damage for all hits regardless of damage reduction (to represent bruising, battering, et. al.) as an optional rule.
Yeah, I like this optional rule, and use it in my own game. It makes it impossible to totally hide behind armour, as you can always be nibbled away, 1 hp at a time.

All the other suggestions sound good to, I especially agree that grappling can be very deadly... (and you don't really need Improved Grapple if you're willing to sacrifice a few of your tribesmen just to draw out the AoO's :twisted: )
 
Picts usually won't sacrifice people, but a grapple during the surprise round will not draw an AoO, as surprised people cannot make AoOs.

Picts attack from ambush, then leave. They hide and do it again. And again. And again.

You might consider watching the forest scene in "First Blood"; even though that is a modern story, the effect of the armed police fighting a knife wielding warrior is the same as a fight with a Pict.

I had a group of a dozen Picts take out an armed force of 32 people, including 4 PCs... and didn't lose a single Pict.
 
I can see it. They jump out of surprise, ambush positions, take out a couple of key guards and diminish numbers silently even until it's "safe" to make the final attack.

Booby traps too, man. Picts aren't scaredy cats, but they take minimal risks for maximum gain. something to cobble/kill horses or take out rear collumn guys is more thier style.
 
VincentDarlage said:
One hapless Nordheimer found out that people don't need to run faster than the Picts to escape - they just need to run faster than the idiot in armour.

If I already hadn't a cool quotation at the bottom of my postings...
 
Sutek said:
I can see it. They jump out of surprise, ambush positions, take out a couple of key guards and diminish numbers silently even until it's "safe" to make the final attack.

Booby traps too, man. Picts aren't scaredy cats, but they take minimal risks for maximum gain. something to cobble/kill horses or take out rear collumn guys is more thier style.
They are master of guerilla warfare. Imagine the way the Vietcong fighted and you have the idea.
Too bad the colons from Aquilonia didn't have artillery support when they were assaulted.
Can we say that General Giap did read all Conan stories or that Howard was a visionaire of the guerilla warfare?
 
Your players like heavy armor? That probably means their dodge DV isn't too hot, try touch attacks like trip and grapple to put them at a disadvantage. Risk the AoO even if the picts don't have the Improved feat.

Your players like heavy armor? That probably means their movement isn't too good. Have the picts run and hide in the dense underbrush then ambush repeatedly, your players will quickly get frustrated with not being able to run th enemy down.

Flanking = +2 bonus to hit
Surrounding an opponent = -2 Dodge DV
Aid Another = +2 bonus to hit or DV
Multiple attackers in melee = +1 for each previous attacker
(Note: the same attacker cannot grant both an Aid another bonus and a Multiple attacker bonus)

Set traps and/or lure the players into hazards of the jungle (wild animals, quicksand, etc). If you can, make the trap a snare or something that will incapicate rather than kill the person, at least for a time. Then while some of the party is trying to help their friend you ambush the rest from behind: presto, you cut the party in half before the fight began.

Harass them at night, don't let them rest.

Sneak into their camp at night and poision their food/water.

Try using nets. Even though they are not REH specific they always seemed to me something the Picts could use, certainly they are soemthing they can make with primitive tech. Between the barbarian versatility ability and the fact that nets use a touch attack, the -4 to hit for exotic weapon isnt' so bad and the benefits are nice.

I use a House Rule that damage delt durring a grapple bypasses DR. This is something we on the boards came up with to deal with exactly this sort of situation.

And if the picts really must stick around and fight it out then defenetly focus on the trip/grapple tacticts.

Hope that helps.
 
The picts would not start shooting at 90', and continue until the pc's close for melee.

Try this scenario:

The characters are trudging through the forest. Without warning, a trio of arrows fly out of the shadows, striking the characters. Whirling, they catch a glimpse of fleeing shapes that quickly disappear into the brush.

If the characters do not pursue, the attacks occur at least once an hour.

If the characters pursue, they chase the picts into a tangled, shadowy area of the forest. The picts are always one step ahead, barely visible. As they run, the characters at the rear of the group are attacked by hidden picts (attack of opportunity) who also attack, then run, trying to draw them off.

When the lead characters blunder into a muddy marsh, the attack begins in earnest. Hidden archers fire at exposed targets. Skulking picts appear from nowhere, striking then running away. Characters that where separated earlier find themselves surrounded and grappled.

At no time do the picts engage in melee unless they outnumber their foes. They seek to flee, drawing the characters into range for their archers, or the hidden Picts.

The picts are the bear trap under the leaves, the arrows from the bushes, the danger you don't see until it is too late. They are the absolute masters of their domain.

As others have said, I highly recommend Across Thunder River. It's an excellent resource for playing the picts like the bastards they are.
 
Don't forget that each Pict attacking a character after the first gets a cumulative +1 bonus to attack, also Picts can hold down a character and aid another to give one pict a +2 on a finesse hit (basically holding a piece of armour aside).

I used the multiple opponents bonus, but didnt try the Aid Other. I suspect if you run the numbers the theoretical damage output is higher for a larger number of attacks as opposed to using Aid Other.

Do you have Across the Thunder River? It has a few tips on making Picts deadlier.

I do. I am considering changing some of the tribal feats.

Also, you can impose a minimum of 1 point of damage for all hits regardless of damage reduction (to represent bruising, battering, et. al.) as an optional rule.

I used that rule, too.

Remember that Picts are guerrilla fighters. They rush in on surprise (DV 10), finesse past armour, take a trophy if they can, then leave. They don't stick around toe-to-toe with armoured opponents unless they can seperate the opponent from any companions. They will attack at night, stealing up upon sleeping characters, past guards, steal weapons and slit throats. Characters may wake up to find other characters (PC or NPC) dead and most of the weapons gone.

The problem lies in meeting encounters where the Picts outnumber the players 4:1 and the Picts decide on some (apparently) easy scalps. The problem with Picts sneaking around is that the more Picts sneaking, the more likely one os going to blow his Move Silently/Hide roll and alert the sentry (which party doesnt use sentries ?). Second, it also presumes the Picts know where the players are.

My players are afraid of Picts and they won't wear armour in Pictland because one hapless Nordheimer found out that people don't need to run faster than the Picts to escape - they just need to run faster than the idiot in armour.

Why wouldnt they wear light armor ? Quilted Jerkin, for example, has no penalties to important skills like Move Silenty, and when combined with a steel helmit is enough armor to neutralize the majority if pict weapons. It also doesnt slow you down. The Rangers really ought to be wearing Quilted Jerkins. There is no downside.

thanks,

Mad Dog
 
Once surrounded, have the first Picts try tp trip or grapple. In a surprise round, the PCs will be flat footed and so get no Parry or Dodge (page 151). They also cannot make attacks of opportunity, so this makes grappling easier. subsequent Picts make finesse attacks in that surprise round at the PCs lousy Defense (remember, no Parry or Dodge) and ought to be able to do some terrible damage.

The chance of getting a party surprised at range 0 is virtually zero. In a surprise round you only get a partial action. So forget closing and grappling. The Picts might get a second action before the players act, but I woulndt count on it.

Also remember that the "Picts on the Warpath" from the bestiary are just an example and you can alwyas add levels and classes to make them nastier. Make about 12 of them and make them all lvl1 thieves for a party of 3-4 lvl1 PCs. That's a really tough encounter in Conan, particularly since the sneak attacks will likely drop someone in the surprise round.

The typical Pict (the vast majority) is 1st level. Also, where is a Pict going to learn being a thief ?

Want to get even more diabolical? Add a Sorcerer....

Oh, I plan on it. : )

Mad Dog
 
The picts would not start shooting at 90', and continue until the pc's close for melee.

In this particular case it was a meeting engagement starting at 90' with both sides seeing each other.

Try this scenario:

The characters are trudging through the forest. Without warning, a trio of arrows fly out of the shadows, striking the characters. Whirling, they catch a glimpse of fleeing shapes that quickly disappear into the brush.

If the characters do not pursue, the attacks occur at least once an hour.


The attacks do nothing. If the Picts take that long between attacks, any few 1-2 points of damage can be first-aided. Eventually someone will spot a Pict and trade ranged fire, which is far more deadly to the Picts than the players.

If the characters pursue, they chase the picts into a tangled, shadowy area of the forest. The picts are always one step ahead, barely visible. As they run, the characters at the rear of the group are attacked by hidden picts (attack of opportunity) who also attack, then run, trying to draw them off.

Well that would certainly work, but the players would have to be pretty brain dead to chase a Pict into the forest. I hope.

When the lead characters blunder into a muddy marsh, the attack begins in earnest. Hidden archers fire at exposed targets. Skulking picts appear from nowhere, striking then running away. Characters that where separated earlier find themselves surrounded and grappled.

At no time do the picts engage in melee unless they outnumber their foes. They seek to flee, drawing the characters into range for their archers, or the hidden Picts.

The picts are the bear trap under the leaves, the arrows from the bushes, the danger you don't see until it is too late. They are the absolute masters of their domain.

As others have said, I highly recommend Across Thunder River. It's an excellent resource for playing the picts like the bastards they are.


All this presupposes the Picts know the players are coming and have time to prepare. That is very rare at best. Your typical encounter is going to be involving 30 picts at most (war party) blundering into the players.

I will have to consider Aid Others as a help. Maybe change the Alligator tribe Feats.

Mad Dog
 
MadDog said:
Why wouldnt they wear light armor ? Quilted Jerkin, for example, has no penalties to important skills like Move Silenty, and when combined with a steel helmit is enough armor to neutralize the majority if pict weapons. It also doesnt slow you down. The Rangers really ought to be wearing Quilted Jerkins. There is no downside.

Quilted jerkins will rot quickly and will become vermin-infested. All the creeks and dampness of the area plays havoc with clothing in general - a quilted jerkin wouldn't last long in the environment. The rangers already have to replace boots and other clothing fairly often - replacing the jerkins on a continual basis is just another expense and another thing to work on (see page 32-33 of AtTR; see also page 48 for living conditions - I would impose disease checks on anyone routinely wearing military issue quilted jerkins).

Also, are quilted jerkins available that far on the frontier? Getting food and other supplies are hard enough. Perhaps the barons think the Westermarckers would prefer metal and never think to send jerkins.

From a mechanical standpoint, sure, it makes sense. But since Howard didn't write it that way, then...

You also have the option of just starting the PCs out without armour.
 
In sufficiently hot and/or humid climates you have to make fort saves if you are exerting yourself in armor. Picture walking around in a swamp in the middle of summer with a suit of quilted armor on.

Armor can also weigh you down if you're caught in a mud pit or bog.

So you are talking about four-one odds? Okay, lets say you have five characters, so that's 20 picts. Thats a nice size war party. Say, one leader, one shaman, two sub-leaders and 16 grunts.

The picts follow the pc's for a day, studying them. Perhaps they even have the shaman summon a forest beastie and attack them with it, just to gauge their strength.

After they see what they're dealing with, the picts slap on the warpaint and drum themselves into a murderous frenzy and set the trap.

The chief and the shaman set up with eight warriors. Sub chief A takes four warriors and they all hide at various points in a predetermined area. Sub Chief B takes the remaining four warriors. These five ambush the party with a flurry of arrows, making sure the characters see them before they flee.

The Sub Chief B and his men fire one round and move one round, leading the characters towards the main trap. if the characters close the gap, they double move or run as needed.

Sub Chief B and company will lead the characters through the area where Sub Chief A and his group are hidden. Again, the lures will use the move and fire routine, avoiding melee if possible. When the characters move through the area, Sub Chief A and group will use surprise attacks, flanking, attacks of opportunity and any other advantages they can. They will focus on characters in the rear of the group, attacking then running away, trying to separate the party.

As they run, the characters will also encounter trip wires, punji stakes, snares and deadfalls.

When Sub Chief B and the lures reach the bog, the Chief and the reserves will attack. The lures will circle around and, joined by Sub Chief A and his men will attack the characters from behind, squeezing them between the two forces.

If at any point the characters become separated, the shaman and the Chief will attack with their eight warriors. They will grapple, subdue and bind characters, saving the killing for later.

The picts will never fight one to one. They will fight on their own terms, using drums, war paint, shamanic magic and nature lore to bolster their attack and hinder the character's defenses.

Hope all that helps.
 
MadDog said:
Your typical encounter is going to be involving 30 picts at most (war party) blundering into the players.

My typical encounter is four Picts hearing the PC's a mile off (exaggeration) as they tramp through the woods (see page 79 of AtTR), although they are not 1st level Picts. They scout out and follow the PCs while one runs back to the war party (which usually numbers around 8-12 in my encounters thus far). They know exactly where the PCs are.

When a non-Pict goes to the bathroom he often does not come back...
 
Quilted jerkins will rot quickly and will become vermin-infested. All the creeks and dampness of the area plays havoc with clothing in general - a quilted jerkin wouldn't last long in the environment. The rangers already have to replace boots and other clothing fairly often - replacing the jerkins on a continual basis is just another expense and another thing to work on (see page 32-33 of AtTR; see also page 48 for living conditions - I would impose disease checks on anyone routinely wearing military issue quilted jerkins).

That was my guess, but if they ever errata AtTR or make a second edition it would be nice to add this - otherwise there are no rules for it.

Also, are quilted jerkins available that far on the frontier? Getting food and other supplies are hard enough. Perhaps the barons think the Westermarckers would prefer metal and never think to send jerkins.

I have it set in Thandara, so no, the arent available, although players could purchase them elsewhere. However leather jerkins would be available in small quantities and they are only -1 on H/MS.

From a mechanical standpoint, sure, it makes sense. But since Howard didn't write it that way, then...

Isnt there a quote from Conan to the effect "if you wore armor, there would be less dead borderers.." ?

You also have the option of just starting the PCs out without armour.

I am not that cruel. Usually.

Mad Dog
 
In sufficiently hot and/or humid climates you have to make fort saves if you are exerting yourself in armor. Picture walking around in a swamp in the middle of summer with a suit of quilted armor on.

There are no rules for that as far as I know, and the Pict wilderness is not all bogs. Most is temperate forest if I read it correctly.

So you are talking about four-one odds? Okay, lets say you have five characters, so that's 20 picts. Thats a nice size war party. Say, one leader, one shaman, two sub-leaders and 16 grunts.

I had it one Barbarian-4 leader and 20 Barbarian-1 grunts. No shamans as those are too rare to be out on typical war or raiding parties. I should of made maybe 10% of grunts into 2nd level types to reflect typical progression.

One thing I did think of was that if the players get a reputation for killing picts and the picts know about it, they could assemble a "hit team" to hunt for the players.

The picts follow the pc's for a day, studying them. Perhaps they even have the shaman summon a forest beastie and attack them with it, just to gauge their strength....
....As they run, the characters will also encounter trip wires, punji stakes, snares and deadfalls.


First problem: that many picts will not remain unspotted (Spot is the single most important skill in the game and the players know it).
Second problem: assumes Picts know about the players
Third problem: assumes the picts have plenty of time to prepare the traps.

I assume if the players are dumb enough to hang around in an area and draw attention, they _will_ die, buried under a mountain of picts. However, most players are smart enough to keep moving.

After they see what they're dealing with, the picts slap on the warpaint and drum themselves into a murderous frenzy and set the trap.

Warpaint is good and the drums and I have incorpated them into encounters. The drums do tend to alert players something is up.

Mad Dog
 
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