captainsmirk
Mongoose
He may have possibly been refering to the fact that the Belgrano was sunk using what was to all intents and purposes a WW2 torpedo because the fancy wire-guided modern tigerfish didn't work properly...
Nick
Nick
Q for Mongoose on Ship Stats
- Thread starter Captain Kremmen
- Start date
Neither does the belgrano's captain, Hector Bonzo. He was interviewed for a TV documentary a few years back and basically said "My ship was a real threat. If I had been on the British side I would have sunk her". I don't think it was the kind of response the TV hacks were hoping for.
Let me amend my earlier guess of 700 casualties, as that number that I remembered was the survivors (770), with 323 killed. As far as torpedoes busting up the Belgrano type of ship (yes, the torps were 1920's design vintage), three type 93s severed the USS Helena (a close sister to the 'Belgrano') into three pieces. I believe it was the world record for a ship of its size to be chopped up by torpedoes. One hit farther back than what hit the Belgrano, and took the forward turret along with the bow. Two other 24" torpedoes struck in the engineering area and broke the ship's back, jack-knifing the main body of the ship and sinking in 20 minutes.
In one of the most jaw-dropping against-the-odds moments in my life, things unfolded as follows. I had decided to take a history book to work to read at lunch (this was back in the early 80's, Falklands timing). A regular customer of my then family's business of selling building supplies dropped in for a bag of nails. He saw the book and asked me if I liked history. I said that I particularly liked naval history and was currently reading about the Battle of Kula Gulf, where the USS Helena was sunk by Long Lance torprdoes. His eyebrows raised a bit and he said something like "Well, I served on the Helena in WW2." I already knew that there were two Helenas, one being named for the dead ship and was a Baltimore class heavy cruiser. I asked "Which one?" and he said the one that was sunk (!). Then my eyebrows raised and I knew that sometimes crew were moved around and it was possible he had served earlier and was transferred before it was sunk. I asked "When?" He then said "When it was sunk," rather calmly. I couldn't believe the odds. I mean, what were the chances? This particular chapter bookmarked in a series of fifteen volumes (DM should know which one, lol) should happen to be the one I was reading, and on that day of all days I would perchance bring it to work to lay on the counter so that he would see it! It got even stranger when I quoted a footnote from the now-opened book with that particular chapter's place tagged by that bookmark. On the very part of the book laid open where the bookmark was, I read a footnote about the ship's log being saved and he again casually said something like "Oh yes, I was the one responsible for keeping the log records and I took it off the ship." And this was just one person out of a ship's complement of 900 and the log notation was his words! I don't think I closed my open jaw for the balance of the day. I was a little more shocked on this day than on another when talking with our main supply salesman about my interests. When I was mentioning the famous Battle of Savo Island he stated that he was on the destroyer Ralph Talbot during that time. I was stunned, but not quite as much as that customer who bought a bag of nails! :roll: Life can sure be strange sometimes!
In one of the most jaw-dropping against-the-odds moments in my life, things unfolded as follows. I had decided to take a history book to work to read at lunch (this was back in the early 80's, Falklands timing). A regular customer of my then family's business of selling building supplies dropped in for a bag of nails. He saw the book and asked me if I liked history. I said that I particularly liked naval history and was currently reading about the Battle of Kula Gulf, where the USS Helena was sunk by Long Lance torprdoes. His eyebrows raised a bit and he said something like "Well, I served on the Helena in WW2." I already knew that there were two Helenas, one being named for the dead ship and was a Baltimore class heavy cruiser. I asked "Which one?" and he said the one that was sunk (!). Then my eyebrows raised and I knew that sometimes crew were moved around and it was possible he had served earlier and was transferred before it was sunk. I asked "When?" He then said "When it was sunk," rather calmly. I couldn't believe the odds. I mean, what were the chances? This particular chapter bookmarked in a series of fifteen volumes (DM should know which one, lol) should happen to be the one I was reading, and on that day of all days I would perchance bring it to work to lay on the counter so that he would see it! It got even stranger when I quoted a footnote from the now-opened book with that particular chapter's place tagged by that bookmark. On the very part of the book laid open where the bookmark was, I read a footnote about the ship's log being saved and he again casually said something like "Oh yes, I was the one responsible for keeping the log records and I took it off the ship." And this was just one person out of a ship's complement of 900 and the log notation was his words! I don't think I closed my open jaw for the balance of the day. I was a little more shocked on this day than on another when talking with our main supply salesman about my interests. When I was mentioning the famous Battle of Savo Island he stated that he was on the destroyer Ralph Talbot during that time. I was stunned, but not quite as much as that customer who bought a bag of nails! :roll: Life can sure be strange sometimes!
One of the criticisms that I often hear levelled against the hobby is how it "glorifies war" and how "the real sailors would be appalled". In my experience though nothing could be further from the truth. I've wargamed Faklands games with people along who were on Sheffield and Coventry when they were lost, and the battle of North Cape with veterans of three navies in attendance. In every case the have been impressed at the attention to detail and the respect with which my gaming chums have shown to the period and the participants. I know there are some small elements of the hobby that do paint an opposite picture (for example the number of SS officianados) but in general I think we are a responsible bunch and veterans appreciate that, and our appreciation for their sacrifices.
In my store which is part computer and part tabletop games I've had a letter-size sign made up for those customers that thought I must be a "warmonger" when they see all of the wargames and destroyed scenery about the shop. When those few ask "What is all of this 'war stuff' doing here?" I point to the sign where it mentions a quote from who I believe to be the "founder" of the hobby- H.G. Wells. :wink: I state that he was a devout socialist and was against war, but wrote an instruction book called "Little Wars" that played with toy soldiers. I've even had one customer that couldn't quite wrap around her brain the concept of war games and anti-war sentiment at the same time. She even commented that the book must have been written at an earlier time in his life before he "repented", right? I said "Nope" and pointed back to the sign where I had also placed some of his comments from the book:
"How much better is this amiable
miniature than the Real Thing! Here is a homeopathic remedy for the
imaginative strategist. Here is the premeditation, the thrill, the
strain of accumulating victory or disaster--and no smashed nor
sanguinary bodies, no shattered fine buildings nor devastated country
sides, no petty cruelties, none of that awful universal boredom and
embitterment, that tiresome delay or stoppage or embarrassment of every
gracious, bold, sweet, and charming thing, that we who are old enough to
remember a real modern war know to be the reality of belligerence."
So you see, I had laid in ambush for those that might question my "warmongering", heh. It worked quite well, lol. She even thought I was a kindred spirit and invited me to a war protest that she was going to attend. I very politely passed on the offer, explaining that "I was somewhat farther to the right of that" but then added "Isn't it great that we all live in a country that allows us the right to protest". She completely missed my artful flanking maneuver and gave me a hug. Heh, I love my customers! :lol:
I still think bringing H.G. out for a talk is the best defence of my hobby for those that don't "get it". :wink:
"How much better is this amiable
miniature than the Real Thing! Here is a homeopathic remedy for the
imaginative strategist. Here is the premeditation, the thrill, the
strain of accumulating victory or disaster--and no smashed nor
sanguinary bodies, no shattered fine buildings nor devastated country
sides, no petty cruelties, none of that awful universal boredom and
embitterment, that tiresome delay or stoppage or embarrassment of every
gracious, bold, sweet, and charming thing, that we who are old enough to
remember a real modern war know to be the reality of belligerence."
So you see, I had laid in ambush for those that might question my "warmongering", heh. It worked quite well, lol. She even thought I was a kindred spirit and invited me to a war protest that she was going to attend. I very politely passed on the offer, explaining that "I was somewhat farther to the right of that" but then added "Isn't it great that we all live in a country that allows us the right to protest". She completely missed my artful flanking maneuver and gave me a hug. Heh, I love my customers! :lol:
I still think bringing H.G. out for a talk is the best defence of my hobby for those that don't "get it". :wink:
