Pretty important, I've just noticed something.

[Voronesh]

Ahh at least i now know where you whedre coming from too.

Well i normally never had any problem with my posting like this before.....but theres a first time for everything.

Personally i take everything on a forum with a grain of salt, and go with the usual, everything that is said only goes for the person saying it. Unless it is written in an aggressive or offensive way.

But yes it would have been nice, if you added, why you think i was arrogant, because your statements pretty much came down to: Youre arrogant for not liking the prepainted stuff.

Even though we both have the same opinion on the new stuff. Its just i love playing the devils advocate.

 

[MaxSteiner]

They're saying you're arogant becasuse you don't agree with them 100% :lol:
I understood what you meant, and made the exact same point myself that wargaming witout the modeling aspect isn't really miniature-wargaming for want of a better word, its just wargaming (I.e moving counters round a board according to the rules).
Using the example of HG Wells is a misnomer since by the modern definition he would be engaged in TOY wargaming (And anyone who says he wasnn't clearly hasn't read Small Wars), still wargaminig to be sure but not wat we consider a minature wargame.
Another example, I don't consider HeroScape to be a miniatures wargame in the sense you or I would consider it (Because there is no modeling element you just play the wargame with counters that you buy in theme packs). On the flipside, by the majority view here it is every single part a wargame, and any suggestion that it might not be is elitism...

If I liked wargaming by itself I'd be playing a pure wargame, theres plenty of systems out there far more detailed and thought provoking then any mini's game out there ever, however I enjoy painting and scenery making, as well as the way a board full of semi painted models looks.
If you want to wargame without the painting or modeling aspect thats fine, but don't try and speak for the people for who don't share your views and act all shocked when they disagree.
(And if you've put in the requisite years and had to give up for health reasons or a sudden realistation that you have better things to do with your free time then painting little lead men thats great to (Hell better then great), thought I'd best try and cover some of the bases...)

 

[Lieutenant Rasczak]

They're saying you're arogant becasuse you don't agree with them 100% :lol:
I understood what you meant, and made the exact same point myself that wargaming witout the modeling aspect isn't really miniature-wargaming for want of a better word, its just wargaming (I.e moving counters round a board according to the rules).
Using the example of HG Wells is a misnomer since by the modern definition he would be engaged in TOY wargaming (And anyone who says he wasnn't clearly hasn't read Small Wars), still wargaminig to be sure but not wat we consider a minature wargame.
Another example, I don't consider HeroScape to be a miniatures wargame in the sense you or I would consider it (Because there is no modeling element you just play the wargame with counters that you buy in theme packs). On the flipside, by the majority view here it is every single part a wargame, and any suggestion that it might not be is elitism...

Its "Little Wars" actually Max, HG wrote two Volumes - "Little Wars" & its companion Volume "Floor Games".

The actual game rules revolve around lead soldiers and battlefields made from whatever materials were on hand, usually blocks or toys. Note: "Lead" Soldiers, the words "toy soldiers" does appear but used in the way most adults refer to their wargaming collections.

Little Wars is considered generally to be the first modern table top wargame (note not TOY Wargame, just 'wargame').

It includes rules for infantry, cavalry, and even artillery.

In addition to being a war game manual, the development of the game is revealed as well as Wells' belief in pacifism.

HeroScape is defined as a "Fantasy Battle Board Game".

Its not the disagrement that causes people to name call, its the attitude of people when they disagree.

 

[MaxSteiner]

Lt, I've read the book dude, the artilary rules involve firinig matches at the toy soldiers with your toy cannons!
The movement rules were at the start how many mewn you could move in a 5 minuite period.
Its a toy wargame. He even admits its a toy wargame, almost all of the bit at the start is about how awesome the toy artilary pieces were and how that lead him to develop it. The @materials@ which were to hand were Toy building blocks! It was played in a childrens toy room...
Hell lets not even forget the point that Isaid by its modern classification
gotto the TMP (A pretty big miniatures page) and they have a Toy Wargaming section, hence why I described it as such, I'm not taking anything away from Wells, by saying its a toy wargame.
http://www.erdweb.com/floorwars/litwars.txt
I got the title wrong though.
Not to say that he didn't improve te rules (Parts of it are still impressive tbh), but any wargame which involves match firing toy cannons, and who's shooting rules involve firing those matches at toy soldiers hiding behind building blocks is pretty much a toy wargame.
Otherwise that Impact game I keep seeing in Woolworths would be a proper wargame and I don't htink the hobby could take that.
http://www.playimpact.com/

I don't see why Heroscape isn't a wargame by your definition really though, it has modular terrain which lets you build your battle ground and the prepainted miniatures come in usable forces. I thought that would have been pretty safe ground to be honest, since if Mongoose do the modular terrain thing it would be the closests comparison in the direction they're moving...

 

[mthomason]

If I liked wargaming by itself I'd be playing a pure wargame, theres plenty of systems out there far more detailed and thought provoking then any mini's game out there ever.

Yup, Kriegspiel (both the rigid and free variants) comes to mind

I'm especially interested in trying out the "free" (as in freedom to do whatever you want and not be constrained by specific rules, rather than free in cost) version some time. I wouldn't want to turn it into a hobby though

 

[Lieutenant Rasczak]

Lt, I've read the book dude, the artilary rules involve firinig matches at the toy soldiers with your toy cannons!
The movement rules were at the start how many mewn you could move in a 5 minuite period.
Its a toy wargame. He even admits its a toy wargame, almost all of the bit at the start is about how awesome the toy artilary pieces were and how that lead him to develop it. The @materials@ which were to hand were Toy building blocks! It was played in a childrens toy room...
Hell lets not even forget the point that Isaid by its modern classification
gotto the TMP (A pretty big miniatures page) and they have a Toy Wargaming section, hence why I described it as such, I'm not taking anything away from Wells, by saying its a toy wargame.
http://www.erdweb.com/floorwars/litwars.txt
I got the title wrong though.
Not to say that he didn't improve te rules (Parts of it are still impressive tbh), but any wargame which involves match firing toy cannons, and who's shooting rules involve firing those matches at toy soldiers hiding behind building blocks is pretty much a toy wargame.
Otherwise that Impact game I keep seeing in Woolworths would be a proper wargame and I don't htink the hobby could take that.
http://www.playimpact.com/

I don't see why Heroscape isn't a wargame by your definition really though, it has modular terrain which lets you build your battle ground and the prepainted miniatures come in usable forces. I thought that would have been pretty safe ground to be honest, since if Mongoose do the modular terrain thing it would be the closests comparison in the direction they're moving...

GOD YOU'RE SO FUDGING EASY PMSL!!!!!!!!

 

[Doctor Warlock]

Lt, I've read the book dude, the artilary rules involve firinig matches at the toy soldiers with your toy cannons!
The movement rules were at the start how many mewn you could move in a 5 minuite period.
Its a toy wargame. He even admits its a toy wargame, almost all of the bit at the start is about how awesome the toy artilary pieces were and how that lead him to develop it. The @materials@ which were to hand were Toy building blocks! It was played in a childrens toy room...
Hell lets not even forget the point that Isaid by its modern classification
gotto the TMP (A pretty big miniatures page) and they have a Toy Wargaming section, hence why I described it as such, I'm not taking anything away from Wells, by saying its a toy wargame.
http://www.erdweb.com/floorwars/litwars.txt
I got the title wrong though.
Not to say that he didn't improve te rules (Parts of it are still impressive tbh), but any wargame which involves match firing toy cannons, and who's shooting rules involve firing those matches at toy soldiers hiding behind building blocks is pretty much a toy wargame.
Otherwise that Impact game I keep seeing in Woolworths would be a proper wargame and I don't htink the hobby could take that.
http://www.playimpact.com/

I don't see why Heroscape isn't a wargame by your definition really though, it has modular terrain which lets you build your battle ground and the prepainted miniatures come in usable forces. I thought that would have been pretty safe ground to be honest, since if Mongoose do the modular terrain thing it would be the closests comparison in the direction they're moving...

Why did you Edit your post Buddy, to cover up your ignorance. You got the title wrong, then pretty much admitted you hadn't read it.

THEN you do a bit of research, and come back with new retorts in an edited post.

You play with Toy Soldiers mate, we all do - no matter how you wrap it up or claim its not - they are Toys.

The good Lieutenant baited you, and you fell for it like the wally you are.

HOOK, LINE, SINKER, AND COPY OF ANGLING TIMES.

 

[MaxSteiner]

No I found the link to that Impact game actually. Its even better then I imagined it'd be!
I don't see how you baited me though Lt. You said the Little wars wasn't a toy wargame and it clearly is. Infact one of the companies which is publishing it at the moment market it eaxatly as that, if anything I baited you since you said you were going to ignore after the last time...

But who cares right?

At Mthomason your totally right, I've always been tempted by block based wargaming since it takes alot of the paperweork out of it
The ideal would be to have a GM who hates everything but book keeping I suppose!

 

[Billy Bunter]

No I found the link to that Impact game actually. Its even better then I imagined it'd be!
I don't see how you baited me though Lt. You said the Little wars wasn't a toy wargame and it clearly is. Infact one of the companies which is publishing it at the moment market it eaxatly as that, if anything I baited you since you said you were going to ignore after the last time...

But who cares right?

At Mthomason your totally right, I've always been tempted by block based wargaming since it takes alot of the paperweork out of it
The ideal would be to have a GM who hates everything but book keeping I suppose!

Well Duh, he obviousley knew where you were coming from - you really are a dullard.

 

[Dippy]

No I found the link to that Impact game actually. Its even better then I imagined it'd be!
I don't see how you baited me though Lt. You said the Little wars wasn't a toy wargame and it clearly is. Infact one of the companies which is publishing it at the moment market it eaxatly as that, if anything I baited you since you said you were going to ignore after the last time...

But who cares right?

At Mthomason your totally right, I've always been tempted by block based wargaming since it takes alot of the paperweork out of it
The ideal would be to have a GM who hates everything but book keeping I suppose!

Max why don't you bog off, you are invariably wrong, or show yourself ignorant, and pretty much people seem to dislike you.

What are you a Teenager, or a young adult with 'issues'.

 

[MaxSteiner]

I don't mind, but how am I wrong here?
The discription I gave is extremly close to what H.G Wells wrote, I even gave a link to the book so people could read it if they didn't believe me...
If I might be told how I'm wrong there perhaps I could improve?
==Edit==>I have been overly negative about SST its true, but the games been effectivly put on hold till April, and Matt himself said the skinnies weren't very good at the end of the day so most of that was vindicated wasn't it?

 

[Lieutenant Rasczak]

I don't mind, but how am I wrong here?
The discription I gave is extremly close to what H.G Wells wrote, I even gave a link to the book so people could read it if they didn't believe me...
If I might be told how I'm wrong there perhaps I could improve?

Ignore them Max, they are even more OTT than me!

I was only joshing. All Wargames involve Toys to some degree, in fact everybody has 'Toys' in their lives.

Whether its the guy who collects Sports Cars, to the Women who like picking designer outfits for her Dogs - they are all playing.

Toys and Wargaming are synonymous TBH (its just how honest people are about their Hobby).

Its the RULES that makes the difference.

 

[MaxSteiner]

Thats a very good point actually dude, it is all wargaming at the end of the day! (and I tend to ignore any of the posts coming in under two lines as a matter of course anyway as it stands, otherwise I'd be even more bitter than I am lol)

I think the point I and some other people were groping for in the darkness is some kind of classification of wargaming along the lines of

==>Wargaming: like with cardboard and stuff...

==>Toy wargaming: Like warhammer 8th edition where with the aid of official GW elastic "battle bands" (tm), "unit rollers" (tm) and real talking generals (With the most powerful elastic bands in the game) you can recreate battles in a world of might and magic

==>Modeling and wargaming: where you spend ages painting little men and trying to convince yourself and others they aren't toys

==>Miniature wargaming: where you just play with little men and accept it

All wargaming but its the essence of geekdom that we're broken into disperate waring tribes isn't it? (Like all those filthy ZX81 owners with their goddamn rubber keyboards: ptuh).
The new prepainted stuff does bridge the gap between all these types, but thats more disturbing in some ways to certain people, in the same way that an extremly popular and benevolant Chieften uniting all the roving tribes is gonna be eyed with suspicion by some of his potential subjects

 

[emperorpenguin]

Like all those filthy ZX81 owners with their goddamn rubber keyboards: ptuh).D

I was electrocuted by one of those once.......

 

[MaxSteiner]

lol that's what was so good about the old days you had that element of danger!
Don't get that anymore with our pre-wired, safetly earthed electronics and non lead miniatures mumble mumble

 

[Lieutenant Rasczak]

Thats a very good point actually dude, it is all wargaming at the end of the day! (and I tend to ignore any of the posts coming in under two lines as a matter of course anyway as it stands, otherwise I'd be even more bitter than I am lol)

I think the point I and some other people were groping for in the darkness is some kind of classification of wargaming along the lines of

==>Wargaming: like with cardboard and stuff...

==>Toy wargaming: Like warhammer 8th edition where with the aid of official GW elastic "battle bands" (tm), "unit rollers" (tm) and real talking generals (With the most powerful elastic bands in the game) you can recreate battles in a world of might and magic

==>Modeling and wargaming: where you spend ages painting little men and trying to convince yourself and others they aren't toys

==>Miniature wargaming: where you just play with little men and accept it

All wargaming but its the essence of geekdom that we're broken into disperate waring tribes isn't it? (Like all those filthy ZX81 owners with their goddamn rubber keyboards: ptuh).
The new prepainted stuff does bridge the gap between all these types, but thats more disturbing in some ways to certain people, in the same way that an extremly popular and benevolant Chieften uniting all the roving tribes is gonna be eyed with suspicion by some of his potential subjects

People who don't like the idea of Pre-Painted have to remember, actually painting models has a lot to compete with time wise.

A lot of people prefer playing a game!

There are other draws on an individuals time too - Computer Games, time on the net, Friends/Relationships and Family, other types of games, sports and other outdoor activities, reading, socializing, and LOADS more.

The move to pre-painted will open it up to people who never considered Wargaming before for a whole host of reasons.

The idea that this makes them mere toys is an illogical one, as the reasons for choosing pre-painted are complex and generally adult.

What will determine whether SSTE is a Kid's game or not, will be the rules. One of the reasons I don't like a lot of EE Games is the kiddified nature of the rules (not only game play, but presentation) i prefer more involved game play personally (which SST provides in spades).

Dictionary.Com defines a "Toy" (noun) as - "an object, often a small representation of something familiar, as an animal or person, for children or others to play with" (so a Wargaming miniature then Lol), and "something that serves for or as if for diversion, rather than for serious pratical use".

We all play with Toys, whether we admit it or not.

I do, and damn proud of it!

To paraphrase John Muir - "Everybody needs beauty as well as bread, places to play in and pray in, where gaming may heal and give strength to body and soul".

 

[MaxSteiner]

Well I think alot of the people accept that really (I have hundreds of things sitting around that short of getting a decent airbrush and some masking fluid I'm never gonna paint), its just if we admit to it we'll never get anything done!
I actually enjoyed painting the bugs from the box set though cause I could do them on the sprue and churn out two ever 10-15 minuites, blakc paint covers up alot of little mistakes lol.
Tbh the best painting time saving idea I ever put into practice was painting in the bath, so thinking about it maybe prepainteds aren't all that crazy

They are all toys at the end of the day I guess, but I think the actual toy wargaming crowd (I.e people who actually refer to themselves as toy wargamers) are more about found items these days, and putting them to use, just like Wells was doing with the toy cannons (Although TMP does include D&D and Heroclicks in that).
Theres alot of Gashapon toys I'd snap up in a secound if I saw them over here for wargaming, especially the last Macross set Bandai had and I'd have no problem with calling that toy wargaming... Actually I'm sure saw those quite cheap somewhere... Mekton 2 had some pretty nice miniature rules hmmmm...

 

[Lieutenant Rasczak]

I have one quandry - Army planning.

Unless the points cost of the Unit is on the Box somewhere, how does a (or any of us till we have all the information we need) newbie plan an army?

The "Advance" RB isn't out straight away, and the Stat Cards are in the Box. I want to buy an Army, say a 1000 Points.

How? Lol!

I know they have said the Data cards will be made freely available, and updates int S&P etc. But that sort of goes against the whole 'plug and play' idea (having to DL stuff etc is extra 'effort') behind the pre-painteds. Or is it me?

 

[MaxSteiner]

I was asking Hiro exactly the same thing the other day actually!
The battle report does seem like they've gotten around the entire tank army syndrome, which was my main fear, but it does seem as though the main rule book will be needed to build a platoon legal choice.
As long as the allocation limits are clearly posted on the back of the box it shouldn't be too much of a prolem (I.e Thorny tanker PL:1 0-1 (0 if a Tanker is in the army etc), but I was thinking with a bit of work a pretty innovitive system could be developed, couldn't really think of one off hand though, other than converting the mission table from SST so that it assigns mission objectives and victory conditions depending on the types forces selected, that way if you did take tanks and tanks and tanks you're mission would be vastly different to that of a more balanced army.

 

[Lieutenant Rasczak]

I was asking Hiro exactly the same thing the other day actually!
The battle report does seem like they've gotten around the entire tank army syndrome, which was my main fear, but it does seem as though the main rule book will be needed to build a platoon legal choice.
As long as the allocation limits are clearly posted on the back of the box it shouldn't be too much of a prolem (I.e Thorny tanker PL:1 0-1 (0 if a Tanker is in the army etc), but I was thinking with a bit of work a pretty innovitive system could be developed, couldn't really think of one off hand though, other than converting the mission table from SST so that it assigns mission objectives and victory conditions depending on the types forces selected, that way if you did take tanks and tanks and tanks you're mission would be vastly different to that of a more balanced army.

Putting PL on is great, but you still need the Pts Value.

I can go into the store, and pick the points (and PL) I want then.