Pretty important, I've just noticed something.

[monument maker]

I just bought my first sst stuff(core set+pathfinders+firefrys) the sunday before the announcement of sst evo :x

 

[JoseDominguez]

Why am i talking about B5? Cause its the same comapny last i checked.
And last time around EE didnt have a game which was well supported and at an acceptable price.......

You know companies generally dont have different types of quality.

Uhh STT is not quite dead true. But theyr are tolling the bell on the current incarnation, along with the hobby. Cause if they go prepainted, its still a wargame, but it aint classical tabeltop anymore. Thats like saying MWA is just part of tabletop too, just collectible, uhh no. Im maybe a little elitist, but i wont consider that.

Uhh why dont I? Sure I will, but thats not the point. Point is, if i can do better, MGP wont make any money.......which means the game will die. I hope the Minis will be good as the initial stuff, but current situation isnt very nice, except this cloud has a silver lining.


Im realistic, thats it. ACTA isnt going down the drain, but i have yet to see a good ship from MGP for quite some time....

If they go prepainted then it isn't classical tabletop anymore? What? Under what classification does a totally new way of obtaining minis make it no longer a tabletop wargame? There is nothing collectible about SST:Evo, you buy specific models, no collecting. They've just removed some of the work. And like others have said, I would sooner play against a pre-bight army of decently painted models than the half-assembled, patchy undercoated piles of crap that are common.
In my opinion, this makes SST:Evo the purest tabletop wargame available, there is no question of modelling/painting skill/spare time being a prerequisite to getting into the gaming side of the system.
I can paint, I think I'm pretty good, but no way will I ever have time to paint the armies I want to play, now I can concentrate on a few character models and get a good looking army onto the board quickly.
Why the hell should serious wargaming be the reserve of people with lots of spare time and a love of painting?
Now those who want to wargame, but don't want to paint have an option.
Think about it....... does a computer gamer have to be able to program? No, so why should wargames have to include a totally different hobby and skill set?

 

[Voronesh]

As I've said before, what's the point worrying about whether the miniatures have been painted by the player or not - there's a chance they've paid someone else to do it for them anyway so they're still not "their" work.

Actually, I'd rather play against someone with prepainted minis than someone who couldn't paint...

Not against you in specifically.

How does that make you (plural, has been mentioned multiple times) any less elitist than me?
Oh yes and you can also call me elitist, by the way I regard the crowd thats playing the game, cause i prefer to play against 16+ people, instead of the 8+ crowd that prepainted are prolly gonna draw in. But that has to do with the statistical maturity of a person, specific people might and will deviate from that.
So basically, the person who puts in money is rewarded by you, instead of the person who is trying to put in time and effort to get better.
And you might be largely dissappointed in our area, cause we decided against whom we play, based on their friendlyness and not on the look of their models.
(seriously we could just agree to disagree here, or keep throwing spotchy arguments at each other. This discussion has gone on too long to keep sufficient arguments, as can be seen.)


Oh and Yes its not classical wargaming, cause the minis are prepainted, thats where i draw the line. Apparently you draw it at the collectible part.

 

[Lorcan Nagle]

As I've said before, what's the point worrying about whether the miniatures have been painted by the player or not - there's a chance they've paid someone else to do it for them anyway so they're still not "their" work.

Actually, I'd rather play against someone with prepainted minis than someone who couldn't paint...

Not against you in specifically.

How does that make you (plural, has been mentioned multiple times) any less elitist than me?
Oh yes and you can also call me elitist, by the way I regard the crowd thats playing the game, cause i prefer to play against 16+ people, instead of the 8+ crowd that prepainted are prolly gonna draw in. But that has to do with the statistical maturity of a person, specific people might and will deviate from that.
So basically, the person who puts in money is rewarded by you, instead of the person who is trying to put in time and effort to get better.
And you might be largely dissappointed in our area, cause we decided against whom we play, based on their friendlyness and not on the look of their models.
(seriously we could just agree to disagree here, or keep throwing spotchy arguments at each other. This discussion has gone on too long to keep sufficient arguments, as can be seen.)

have you any proof that SST:Evo is going to skew towards younger players?

Oh and Yes its not classical wargaming, cause the minis are prepainted, thats where i draw the line. Apparently you draw it at the collectible part.

How does that make it any different? the rules are still the rules. If BattleTech or Starfleet Battles came with prepainted minis would they suddenly not be wargames? They'd certianly be too complex for 8 year olds.

 

[mthomason]

Actually, I'd rather play against someone with prepainted minis than someone who couldn't paint...

Not against you in specifically.

Understood

How does that make you (plural, has been mentioned multiple times) any less elitist than me?

It doesn't - but I never mentioned elitism (I know it wasnt necessarily aimed at me ). I don't think any kind of elitism is escapable in this kind of thing, whatever people may say - everyone has their own standards, and will expect others to meet them to some degree. The only difference between everyone here is what those standards are about - whether it's standards in gameplay, painting or whether you painted you army yourself. All of our opinions are valid to some degree.

I'm quite happy stating that I like to play a game with figures that don't look like they were dipped upside down in a paint pot and had random blotches thrown at them, and thats why I like the idea of these prepaints. Some other prepaints look worse than most "bad" painters can do in a hurry, and I hate them. If these come out as good as we've been promised, I'm more than happy with them. I don't really care who painted my or my opponents armies, as long as they look presentable.

There's going to be so many opinions on the whole issue, most of them personal, and none of them "right" (especially mine )

The only "right" decision at the end of the day is whatever makes the most gamers happy, and therefore makes Mongoose money to put back into supporting the game development. Personally I think this will meet that criteria... but we can only wait and see if it really does.

I love painting, I love gaming, but the two are seperate hobbies in my eyes - half the stuff I paint is the stuff I want to paint, and will never see the gaming table. The other half is the stuff I feel I'm "forced" to paint in order to get a game. Usually what I want to paint does not mesh very well with what I want to play. Right now I want to paint Dark Elves, but I want to play BF Evo

 

[Voronesh]

Yes not aimed at you, but yours was the shortest quote i had. Without ripping posts apart.

Actually someone else accused me of full elitism, simple because i dont consider prepainted as a traditional tabletop game. Actually I was not accusing anyone of being a bad person or anything, i just went on about the game itself. Heck if many new tabletops go towards prepainted it will change the face of tabletop gaming. But right now, i dont think traditional wargaming encompasses prepainted stuff, also collectible is something i dont think is part of that; though here most players will probably agree with me. And i dont think that makes me an elitist. I can agree, that its maybe a little. But then again i like the fact, that an army grows on you, when you have painted it yourself. Something that should be understandable after reading Heinlein's book.

Plus a wargame does not only define itself about the rulessystem, but also via the method it is played. Otherwise someone might call onlinegames tabletop too. Simply because the rulesystem is the same. And they are playing on a table too, that laptop has to go somewhere.

And someone else said, that he prefers prepainted over barely painted aka WIP armies. Again please consider this: I mean that someone is putting work into his army, not throwing minis into the paintpot and then calling them perfect. In our area, theres enough people with WIP armies. He prolly would find 2-3 guys total out of maybe 15 peeps to play with that attitude.

Excuse me for drawing different people together, but its hard to discuss with 5 people at the same time within one thread. But I am trying to address everyone / every post itself. Maybe i have managed that, maybe not. But it is hard to keep 5 different people apart.

How it would skew the playerbase, probably the same way, MWA had a large skew into that direction. At least in my area, so yes this is personal experience, so you may discard that, but what else to go on? There really isnt any comprehensive statistic (now that one would be quite interesting). Same way MTG draws more young players.

I never said anything about the rules. Sure the rules stay the same, but now you are extolling about an 8 year olds inability to understand a rulessystem. Maybe the shoe is on the other foot now? I have seen fathers teach their so called inable 8 year olds LOTR, with quite some success i have to add. If children turn their mind to something, it is not necessarily a problem for them to understand the rules and get the basic mechanics right. They might be gaming a bit more intuitively and less with the statistics in mind, but still they dont lose much more than you might think. Maybe they need help with the statistics part, like what weapon rolls what again.

Now i just realized this post has precious little about the reasons why i dont totally embrace the change like many others here, though i hope the important bits are still conveyed. (Yeah its mostly trying to clear a few things up, but nobody likes to be accused for the wrong reasons)

Thank you for your time.

 

[Lorcan Nagle]

Actually someone else accused me of full elitism, simple because i dont consider prepainted as a traditional tabletop game. Actually I was not accusing anyone of being a bad person or anything, i just went on about the game itself. Heck if many new tabletops go towards prepainted it will change the face of tabletop gaming. But right now, i dont think traditional wargaming encompasses prepainted stuff, also collectible is something i dont think is part of that; though here most players will probably agree with me. And i dont think that makes me an elitist. I can agree, that its maybe a little. But then again i like the fact, that an army grows on you, when you have painted it yourself. Something that should be understandable after reading Heinlein's book.

It was I that said your opinion is elitist, and I still think so. That said, I do agree with some of what you said - the army that you assemble and paint yourself has a personality and style that makes it unique moreso than prepainted minis.

But the nature of th eminis does not make something a wargame or not.

Plus a wargame does not only define itself about the rulessystem, but also via the method it is played. Otherwise someone might call onlinegames tabletop too. Simply because the rulesystem is the same. And they are playing on a table too, that laptop has to go somewhere.

Well a computer-based wargame isn't a tabletop wargame, it's a computer one, but it's still a wargame. Even excepting games like Command and Conquer, you still have turn-based wargames (going back a ways)like Battle Isle and Steel Batallions, and the only difference is the computer's using a random number generator instead of dice, and the minis/counters are on the screen instead of on the table.

What would you classify a game of A call to Arms played using the Java-based online game emulator Vassal? is it suddenly not a wargame because you're playig it over the net?

How it would skew the playerbase, probably the same way, MWA had a large skew into that direction. At least in my area, so yes this is personal experience, so you may discard that, but what else to go on? There really isnt any comprehensive statistic (now that one would be quite interesting). Same way MTG draws more young players.

in my own personal expiernce, I've never seen a child under 16 in a games shop who's name didn;t begin with "games" with an end that rhymed with "blurkshop". As for magic drawing younger players, it's not just because it's cards, which I'll address below.

I never said anything about the rules. Sure the rules stay the same, but now you are extolling about an 8 year olds inability to understand a rulessystem. Maybe the shoe is on the other foot now? I have seen fathers teach their so called inable 8 year olds LOTR, with quite some success i have to add. If children turn their mind to something, it is not necessarily a problem for them to understand the rules and get the basic mechanics right. They might be gaming a bit more intuitively and less with the statistics in mind, but still they dont lose much more than you might think. Maybe they need help with the statistics part, like what weapon rolls what again.

Well I specifically threw out BattleTech and Starfleet Battles because they're insanely complex games (and I'm not dissing either, I've been a die-hard CBT player for 12+ years). i never said an 8-yar old couldn't understand a rules sytem, but a game having prepainte dminis won't specifically make a game easier for them to learn.

To go back to the example of Magic - its' appeal comes from a number of things - simple rules, collectible nature, quick game time. Most of which also applies to CMGs. Starship Troopers does share the first and third point there to a certain degree, but it's still a leap in complexity above Heroclix or MWDA. It's about 30 leaps below CBT, SFB or something even more arcane like Advanced Squad Leader or Attack Vector.

In my own opinion - Wargaming is about the tactics and the ruleset, and what you play with is secondary. Modelling is certianly an intrinsic part of wargames in the last 25-odd years, but there's piles of games from the 70's and early 80s (and even more recently) that are undoubtedly wargames in terms of scope and appeal, but use counters instead of minis.

 

[JoseDominguez]

I still think it's a no brainer.... wargaming is well, playing wargames, painting miniatures is.... painting miniatures.
Two different hobbies that have been lumped together for too long. The new SST will ensure anyone who wants to play can. It's going to reduce the 'comic book guy' appearance of wargames. In fact, I think it's going to do what the playstation did for video games. SST will be something anyone can pick up and try, as you don't need to spend hours before you can even have a go.
Want to personalise your forces... you can.
Best of both worlds.

I remember when I first played battletech and was talked down to because I didn't know the background. It put me off, elitism in gaming has always been a problem (and usually due to people who feel the need to be an authority on something as the rest of their lives are a bit empty). Maybe this will reduce it, make gaming more mainstream.

 

[CudaHP]

Amen JoseDominguez.

Each of us as game players select those we game against. If you do not want to play against 10 year olds, that is your choice, if you will only play against those who paint their own figures, again your decision and choice.

Now, that said Voronesh, or whateveer I know many dedicated players of large scale 54mm who refuse to paint their own historical miniatures, preferring to hire professionals who have the skill and knowledge to paint their "precious 54's" in exactly the proper original colors and patterns.

Are these serious Wargamers? I have never met any more precise and perfectionistic recreators of the great classical battles throughout history. I do not share their level of enthusiasm or dedication, but I can certainly appreciate it.

I have said this before and I will say it again. Voronesh, do you sculpt and cast your own figures? Do you compound your own paints and adhesives? Yours is an elitism based on how much you do, so I do not make my own paints or adhesives but I frequently sculpt/model then cast my own figures etc.

Should I refuse to play SST with you because you do not?
I used to make 90% of the advanced scenery used at my local game store, which I donated to the store so others could have nicer battlefields to game on (all scratch built). I built steel structures from cardstock with individual straight pin heads applied as rivet heads.
Should I refuse to game with you or anyonbe because they do not do the same?

Hell no, because that is not just Elitism, that is just plain arrogance.
I also have pride in what I paint, but my only requirement is that someone tries and makes an effort to be a pleasant game opponent.

I am decidedly not better than anyone else. I just do these things because I can or could. I do these using only my right hand just as I am typing this with only my right hand, because I lost most of the use of my left hand five plus years ago.

Does THAT make me better than anyone else hell no, it just means I refuse to quit or give up.

Now that I have said all of that, I should apologize to you Voronesh,much of this was directed at you individually but not necessarily all of it.

We each have opinions on these issues. We will obviously never fully agree on all of these issues, so I have now said my piece and wholeheartedly agree to disagree with you. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

 

[Voronesh]

I am sorry to say this, but apparently i do not get my point across.

I said only that prepainted is not "traditional" aka "classic" to me.
I never said that it would be a lesser game or anything.
Again it has been pointed out yourself that painting and wargaming have been mixed for a long time, there i make my point of that type of gaming being traditional. (Again traditional means that its the old way and not new. Traditional does not give a rating based on quality. Traditional might be bad and new might be good.)

Again i do NOT refer to any person. Again I would not have a problem playing against someone who uses prepainted.

My point is that I, MYSELF and ME do not like prepainted stuff. And that I, MYSELF and ME will very probably (95% unless were maybe talking LAMI) buy the special order way. Whatever other people choose to do is their choice and fully within their right and fully acceptable and OK!

How does that make me an elitist. If you wish to keep up your accusation so be it. But i do not that it is justified. Again this my opinion only concerns me in this case.

 

[Lorcan Nagle]

maybe you should try and rephrase your point? Claiming wargamign isn't wargaming if the minis are prepainted is a very arrogant way of putting things.

 

[Voronesh]

I meant its not traditional Tabletop wargaming. Thats it.

Point is Prepainted Tabletop isnt the newest stuff around. So it doesnt really count as traditional.

Would i be arrogant for claiming that a Porsche Cayenne is not a traditional Porsche car. Because it is a first SUV by Porsche in a VERY long time?

 

[tneva82]

Again it has been pointed out yourself that painting and wargaming have been mixed for a long time, there i make my point of that type of gaming being traditional. (Again traditional means that its the old way and not new. Traditional does not give a rating based on quality. Traditional might be bad and new might be good.)

TRADITIONAL wargaming was done with counters. Ergo painting your models your own is not actually traditional in wargames. So all of those who have played with counters long ago can then sneer at this new-fangled painting thingie then?

Actually pre-painted would bring then wargaming more of back to it's roots. Counters just have turned into more beatifull :lol:

 

[mthomason]

Well, if I'm forced to chip in here... (well I'm not forced, but I'm going to anyway).

HG Wells, acknowledged by many as the father of modern wargaming (see his books, Little Wars and Floor Games, the text of both is freely available from Project Gutenberg) played with toy lead soldiers that came pre-painted from the manufacturer.

 

[Voronesh]

Ok and maybe that is old enough to classify for antique tabletop.

I rescind my point. Prepainted has not been done with wargaming successfully for a long time. As such I count it as non-traditional.

Still my Porsche comparison holds. Porsche did a SUV way back after 2nd world war for the German military but failed for work-political reasons. Still when you think Porsche you still think Sportscar right?

So if i think traditional tabletop, i think painted. Just like when i think traditional Porsche means sportscar. (Neither is the Cayenne a bad car, nor is prepainted a bad tabletop).

And again this is my understanding of traditional. You can replace the word with old, or anything else you like.

So question still is, does that make me arrogant, or even elitist? Still dont think so.

 

[Lorcan Nagle]

I meant its not traditional Tabletop wargaming. Thats it.

Point is Prepainted Tabletop isnt the newest stuff around. So it doesnt really count as traditional.

Would i be arrogant for claiming that a Porsche Cayenne is not a traditional Porsche car. Because it is a first SUV by Porsche in a VERY long time?

But as has been mentioned (by myself and others above), that traditional wargaming involves counters.

Wargaming is a hobby where you simulate warfare using a set of rules and statistics to arbitrate discussions over who died and how good someone is as shooting and such.

Modelling is a hobby where you build things, often from a kit or similar multi-part source, often painting them for detail afterwards.

They've been intertwined for decades, but they're still two seperate hobbies. Just closely related.

 

[Lorcan Nagle]

Ok and maybe that is old enough to classify for antique tabletop.

I rescind my point. Prepainted has not been done with wargaming successfully for a long time. As such I count it as non-traditional.

Still my Porsche comparison holds. Porsche did a SUV way back after 2nd world war for the German military but failed for work-political reasons. Still when you think Porsche you still think Sportscar right?

So if i think traditional tabletop, i think painted. Just like when i think traditional Porsche means sportscar. (Neither is the Cayenne a bad car, nor is prepainted a bad tabletop).

And again this is my understanding of traditional. You can replace the word with old, or anything else you like.

So question still is, does that make me arrogant, or even elitist? Still dont think so.

Porsche may have a reputation for building sportscars, but that doesn't mean a Porsche SUV is any less a Porsche.

 

[Voronesh]

Ahhh yes. But that makes me arrogant? Because i like the two to be a little intertwined.

Again thbis concerns me and not anyone else. If other people prefer prepainted thats their thing. And i will still gladly play em.

 

[Voronesh]

Ok and maybe that is old enough to classify for antique tabletop.

I rescind my point. Prepainted has not been done with wargaming successfully for a long time. As such I count it as non-traditional.

Still my Porsche comparison holds. Porsche did a SUV way back after 2nd world war for the German military but failed for work-political reasons. Still when you think Porsche you still think Sportscar right?

So if i think traditional tabletop, i think painted. Just like when i think traditional Porsche means sportscar. (Neither is the Cayenne a bad car, nor is prepainted a bad tabletop).

And again this is my understanding of traditional. You can replace the word with old, or anything else you like.

So question still is, does that make me arrogant, or even elitist? Still dont think so.

Porsche may have a reputation for building sportscars, but that doesn't mean a Porsche SUV is any less a Porsche.

Correct, but your just repeating me here.

 

[Lorcan Nagle]

Ahhh yes. But that makes me arrogant? Because i like the two to be a little intertwined.

Again thbis concerns me and not anyone else. If other people prefer prepainted thats their thing. And i will still gladly play em.

I think the disagreement here comes more form how you stated your point than anything else. I don't doubt that most people here like the character that comes from assembling and painting their own minis, and I for one fully intend to keep my MI as prepainted free as possible. but i don't discount the possibility of picking up a second army of prepainteds, just so have a force for pickup games

It's more the authoratative way you stated your opinion that caused offense - it suggested a level of snobbery towards people who like or don't mind the idea of prepainteds. And I'm sure now you didn't mean to come across like that.

Porsche may have a reputation for building sportscars, but that doesn't mean a Porsche SUV is any less a Porsche.

Correct, but your just repeating me here.

It all comes down to expectations and qualifiers here, I guess. I see where you're coming from in that if someone said "Porsche have a new car out", you'd assume it was an SUV. But then again, if you were going to talk about their new SUV, you'd more likely say SUV as a qualifier right off the bat