Playtesting vorlons.
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eldiablito
Mongoose
Funny, I often had in my head, the idea that vorlon troops COULD exist.
Whereas a human Troop score of 1 represented a couple of GROPOS fire teams, a single Troop of 1 Vorlons was just that... 1 Vorlon. Yeah, it is sorta out of character (based on the show), but the only option is some sort of planet destroying weapon that wipes out all trace of the planet while playing campaigns; which would also be pretty cool.
All that said, I have not seen the stats of the new Vorlon vessels, but I do agree: another Armageddon level ship is really unneeded. This fleet NEEDS a raid level ship; an under-gunned, scout and carrier could be really unusual and interesting.
Whereas a human Troop score of 1 represented a couple of GROPOS fire teams, a single Troop of 1 Vorlons was just that... 1 Vorlon. Yeah, it is sorta out of character (based on the show), but the only option is some sort of planet destroying weapon that wipes out all trace of the planet while playing campaigns; which would also be pretty cool.
All that said, I have not seen the stats of the new Vorlon vessels, but I do agree: another Armageddon level ship is really unneeded. This fleet NEEDS a raid level ship; an under-gunned, scout and carrier could be really unusual and interesting.
Pawnographer
Mongoose
I have justed starting playing Vorlons & I have been playing ACTA for less than a year (I started about 2 weeks before Mongoose announced they would discontinue making their B5 Miniatures).
The Vorlons are good but are certainly not invincible or broken based upon my initial experience. They also need to be played differently than, say the Drakh & Centauri (my other2 fleets + League). I have really just played them four times so far and have more to learn:
1) First Game: Vorlin versus the Narn: 2 Lt Cruisers & a Destroyer + some good beam rolls destroyed the best 4 ships the Narn had in the first 2 turns including a G'Vahn; game over. I was thinking - Gee maybe they are pretty good.
2) 2nd Game: An experiment - a Vorlon Lt Cruiser + 2 Transports vs. Poseidon Carrier with some upgraded fighters. Poseidon launched most of its fighters but died in 2 turns after 2 volleys from the Lt Cruiser destroyed it (54 damage on first volley + 45+ on the second volley (wow). The 2 Transports got killed and the remaining fighters stayed behind the Cruiser. They could not do much with 2d6 self-repair but with 1 ship I could get them. I decided to jump out for one hour and come back after the fighters air supply was gone but razin felt I had retreated from the field. Laughs by both of us. Still thinking - wow - the Vorlons seem pretty good.
3) 3rd Game vs. eldiablito's Vree. I experimented from Game 1 and started with 1 Lt. Cruiser, 2 Destroyer, 2 Transports and some Patrol choices of Fighters. The Transports & Fighters were to hang back to protect my rear and the Lt Cruiser was to anchor my right flank as there was space debris in the middle of the board and the more numerous Vree Fleet set-up first, spread across the board and I concentrated on their right flank trying to take advantage of the "terrain." Overall I was satisfied with my Fleet set-up but see Lessons comments below.
Eldiablito said:
All true plus he got 2 lucky crits: Turn 1, first volley from a Vree Patrol ship - Lose 1 Arc (no shooting for a Vorlon)
on the Vital Systems Crit Table (My Lt Cruiser got poinded until it died (appropriate for a Vorlon ship))(#@!*) and Turn 2 Lost my Self=Repair Trait. My Destroyers were getting good beam rolls and doing ALOT of damage but that 1 Lt Cruiser represented almost half of my firepower! Eldiablito loves the Vree and plays them well (he is a very good player with a sense of humor - a good person to learn from). All those ships with their nasty antimatter weapons are a good challenge for the Vorlons. The game seemed to be how quickly can the Vorlons start killing ships before the Vree get close, concentrate their attacks and start picking off Vorlon ships one by one.
Mistakes & Lessons:
I did not use the Vorlon Fighters effectively. I was not taking full advantage of their Advanced Anti-Fighter Trait by getting within 2 inches but not dogfighting the Vree Fighters. I also probaly should have kept them back one more turn than I did. My poor fighter rolls were not the ships' faults.
Transports - did not impress at all. I believe that if I had a good Raid selection, I would have taken that over the 2 Transports OR, better, maybe - more fighters to deal with Vree patrol boats and fighters. I probably will be more reluctant to use them but I am still experimenting. However, except for fighters, it does NOT seem worthwhile to buy "down" with the Vorlons. Eldiablito & I will have a match-up. He is a very good player & has a good sense of humor (nice combination).
Things I think I did right: sit back and kills things - alot of All Stops - and set-up - concentrate on one side of the board and take out the enemy fleet in parts.
4) Game 4 - 2nd game late afternoon quickie - 5 point Batlle against Razin's ISA which I had predicted could be a good match-up for the ISA (firepower, speed and get behind the Vorlons). Vorlon Fleet: 5 Destroyers. ISA Fleet a Gunship + a ton of Whitestar Scouts & Bluestars. Leadman helped me with some good insights/advice.
Close but ISA won. ISA seemed to be out-rolling the Vorlons on crits but the Vorlons were killing the Whitestar Scouts & Gunship. The surprising difference seemed to be the Bluestars + scouting allowed those annoying double damage 4 AD little patrol B******* (choices) to dish out ALOT of damage and they were alot of them (8; under the P&P rules, there would be about 5).
Those Bluestars are terrific patrol choice (dodge; speed; AD - 8 inch range the one drawback)(The Vree patrol ships were also great - rough last 2 games for the Vorlons). The accurate guns are also good against fighters and my Drakh Raiders
Razin (who earlier commented about how good the Vorlons were) did a good job with his ISA! (Razin has been playing the game for less time than I have and is doing great.) Not sure how to handle the ISA. (I know - a comment that will invite both thoughtful and stupid opinions) If Mongoose nukes the Whitestar in P&P, I will be alright (lol).
B5 ACTA has been my first miniatures game and I like the flavor and game. Of course, the game can be improved with some tweaks and experienced players have made many, many worthy recommendations.
The Vorlons are good but are certainly not invincible or broken based upon my initial experience. They also need to be played differently than, say the Drakh & Centauri (my other2 fleets + League). I have really just played them four times so far and have more to learn:
1) First Game: Vorlin versus the Narn: 2 Lt Cruisers & a Destroyer + some good beam rolls destroyed the best 4 ships the Narn had in the first 2 turns including a G'Vahn; game over. I was thinking - Gee maybe they are pretty good.
2) 2nd Game: An experiment - a Vorlon Lt Cruiser + 2 Transports vs. Poseidon Carrier with some upgraded fighters. Poseidon launched most of its fighters but died in 2 turns after 2 volleys from the Lt Cruiser destroyed it (54 damage on first volley + 45+ on the second volley (wow). The 2 Transports got killed and the remaining fighters stayed behind the Cruiser. They could not do much with 2d6 self-repair but with 1 ship I could get them. I decided to jump out for one hour and come back after the fighters air supply was gone but razin felt I had retreated from the field. Laughs by both of us. Still thinking - wow - the Vorlons seem pretty good.
3) 3rd Game vs. eldiablito's Vree. I experimented from Game 1 and started with 1 Lt. Cruiser, 2 Destroyer, 2 Transports and some Patrol choices of Fighters. The Transports & Fighters were to hang back to protect my rear and the Lt Cruiser was to anchor my right flank as there was space debris in the middle of the board and the more numerous Vree Fleet set-up first, spread across the board and I concentrated on their right flank trying to take advantage of the "terrain." Overall I was satisfied with my Fleet set-up but see Lessons comments below.
Eldiablito said:
eldiablito said:
All true plus he got 2 lucky crits: Turn 1, first volley from a Vree Patrol ship - Lose 1 Arc (no shooting for a Vorlon)
on the Vital Systems Crit Table (My Lt Cruiser got poinded until it died (appropriate for a Vorlon ship))(#@!*) and Turn 2 Lost my Self=Repair Trait. My Destroyers were getting good beam rolls and doing ALOT of damage but that 1 Lt Cruiser represented almost half of my firepower! Eldiablito loves the Vree and plays them well (he is a very good player with a sense of humor - a good person to learn from). All those ships with their nasty antimatter weapons are a good challenge for the Vorlons. The game seemed to be how quickly can the Vorlons start killing ships before the Vree get close, concentrate their attacks and start picking off Vorlon ships one by one.Mistakes & Lessons:
I did not use the Vorlon Fighters effectively. I was not taking full advantage of their Advanced Anti-Fighter Trait by getting within 2 inches but not dogfighting the Vree Fighters. I also probaly should have kept them back one more turn than I did. My poor fighter rolls were not the ships' faults.
Transports - did not impress at all. I believe that if I had a good Raid selection, I would have taken that over the 2 Transports OR, better, maybe - more fighters to deal with Vree patrol boats and fighters. I probably will be more reluctant to use them but I am still experimenting. However, except for fighters, it does NOT seem worthwhile to buy "down" with the Vorlons. Eldiablito & I will have a match-up. He is a very good player & has a good sense of humor (nice combination).
Things I think I did right: sit back and kills things - alot of All Stops - and set-up - concentrate on one side of the board and take out the enemy fleet in parts.
4) Game 4 - 2nd game late afternoon quickie - 5 point Batlle against Razin's ISA which I had predicted could be a good match-up for the ISA (firepower, speed and get behind the Vorlons). Vorlon Fleet: 5 Destroyers. ISA Fleet a Gunship + a ton of Whitestar Scouts & Bluestars. Leadman helped me with some good insights/advice.
Close but ISA won. ISA seemed to be out-rolling the Vorlons on crits but the Vorlons were killing the Whitestar Scouts & Gunship. The surprising difference seemed to be the Bluestars + scouting allowed those annoying double damage 4 AD little patrol B******* (choices) to dish out ALOT of damage and they were alot of them (8; under the P&P rules, there would be about 5).
Those Bluestars are terrific patrol choice (dodge; speed; AD - 8 inch range the one drawback)(The Vree patrol ships were also great - rough last 2 games for the Vorlons). The accurate guns are also good against fighters and my Drakh Raiders
Razin (who earlier commented about how good the Vorlons were) did a good job with his ISA! (Razin has been playing the game for less time than I have and is doing great.) Not sure how to handle the ISA. (I know - a comment that will invite both thoughtful and stupid opinions) If Mongoose nukes the Whitestar in P&P, I will be alright (lol).B5 ACTA has been my first miniatures game and I like the flavor and game. Of course, the game can be improved with some tweaks and experienced players have made many, many worthy recommendations.
Agree that the Vorlons are not overpowered. If anything, the current list seems to indicate a lack of vision on MGPs part as to exactly what they want to do with the Vorlons.
Also agree that a Carrier would have been much more welcome than the Dread, though I think you'd need it to be a War level in order to make it really useful.
So, has anybody playtested the new Vorlon SA?
This just looks like a worthless SA. In exchange for getting a whole '2' damage points back, my Vorlon Transport can do nothing for one whole turn and I don't even get the damage back until the End Phase? The concept seems nice, but unlike the new Abbai SA, the implementation seems lacking.
If they want to give the Vorlons a really useful SA, give them a better Anti-Fighter defense. Maybe an SA that generates some kind of A-F pulse that puts AD against all fighters within a certain radius.
Also agree that a Carrier would have been much more welcome than the Dread, though I think you'd need it to be a War level in order to make it really useful.
So, has anybody playtested the new Vorlon SA?
This just looks like a worthless SA. In exchange for getting a whole '2' damage points back, my Vorlon Transport can do nothing for one whole turn and I don't even get the damage back until the End Phase? The concept seems nice, but unlike the new Abbai SA, the implementation seems lacking.
If they want to give the Vorlons a really useful SA, give them a better Anti-Fighter defense. Maybe an SA that generates some kind of A-F pulse that puts AD against all fighters within a certain radius.
Greg Smith
Mongoose
The new Vorlon special action isn't meant to be great, it is meant to be an option. The Abbai special actiona are meant to be great because the Abbai fleet is considered a weak one. The Vorlon special action works a lot better for the big ships -6d6 repair on the cruiser is quite significant.
Wont argue, on BIG Vorlon Vessels the new special action works great.
But how often in game are you likely to play with BIG ships?
Answer very very rarely!!!
So when most games are small as an option doubling your repair rate for a turn of 1 to 2 is rubbish, (or even the new Frigate 2 doubled 4), is rubbish when you taking around a third damage a turn!
So as an option on small vorlon ships the only time i'd use it is on a critical hit no fire from 1 arc (vorlon only 1 arc so what else to do)!
But how often in game are you likely to play with BIG ships?
Answer very very rarely!!!
So when most games are small as an option doubling your repair rate for a turn of 1 to 2 is rubbish, (or even the new Frigate 2 doubled 4), is rubbish when you taking around a third damage a turn!
So as an option on small vorlon ships the only time i'd use it is on a critical hit no fire from 1 arc (vorlon only 1 arc so what else to do)!
Greg Smith
Mongoose
The abilities in P&P aren't meant to boost the power of the fleets. (Now I won't argue if you tell me that some are better than others). They are meant to give options - extra self-repair when you lose your only weapon is an option.
Remember every damage point a Vorlon repairs is often worth two (or even three) damage.
Remember every damage point a Vorlon repairs is often worth two (or even three) damage.
Greg Smith wrote:
Greg,
Understood that the idea was to add flavor, not necessarily boost power levels, but if the option provided isn't particularly useful, then it's not much of an option. On a whim, I played Vorlons in our store's recent campaign and, though they were a power to be feared in larger battles, they were severly handicapped in battles at Raid and below.
Perhaps the new Raid-level ship will fix the problem, but the Transport, which by necessity is the workhorse of the Vorlon fleet in low PL games, just wasn't survivable. When I first saw this SA I thought, "great, something to help my Transports stay in the game a bit longer." Unfortunately, this SA is too little too late to help a Transport in trouble.
As you suggested, I might use this SA on one of the bigger ships to stave off damage while I wait for a no-shooting crit to heal, but with the average campaign or tournament game being at Raid level, the likelihood of getting a Light or Heavy Cruiser into a game is slight.
Greg,
Understood that the idea was to add flavor, not necessarily boost power levels, but if the option provided isn't particularly useful, then it's not much of an option. On a whim, I played Vorlons in our store's recent campaign and, though they were a power to be feared in larger battles, they were severly handicapped in battles at Raid and below.
Perhaps the new Raid-level ship will fix the problem, but the Transport, which by necessity is the workhorse of the Vorlon fleet in low PL games, just wasn't survivable. When I first saw this SA I thought, "great, something to help my Transports stay in the game a bit longer." Unfortunately, this SA is too little too late to help a Transport in trouble.
As you suggested, I might use this SA on one of the bigger ships to stave off damage while I wait for a no-shooting crit to heal, but with the average campaign or tournament game being at Raid level, the likelihood of getting a Light or Heavy Cruiser into a game is slight.
mollari_uk
Mongoose
I recently played with my Vorlons for the first time and I used 5 transports for testing our upcoming tourney and I was surprised at how quickly they died. I thought I was missing a trait or something but alas no. 12 damage with AA just isn't that great and a 2 die beam is completely unreliable. I missed so many times.
Compared to a Bluestar who has 5 damage AA and dodge 3+ and you get two of the suckers. I'd take those any day.
I don't think the new SA helps these at all.
Compared to a Bluestar who has 5 damage AA and dodge 3+ and you get two of the suckers. I'd take those any day.
I don't think the new SA helps these at all.
Foxmeister
Mongoose
I've never actually played either with or against the Vorlons so this is purely supposition, but to be honest on paper the transport doesn't look that bad. You can get two for the price of one White Star, and I think the HPs and weaponry rather reflect that. With AA and Dodge factored in, a WS is looking like 40 HPs "worth" at best (rather simplistic I know) whereas two transports are 48 HPs "worth". Certainly the WS seems to manage very well with a 2 AD beam (albeit TD rather than DD), and two transports have double that.
Regards,
Dave
Regards,
Dave
katadder said:
May being the opperatice word there!!!
mollari_uk said:
Agreed Having the ability to "Dodge" makes the blue star a more viable opption, having 4AD of Accurat Double damage is a killer to a lot of small ships, as well as having the other SA like APTE meanin you 16" move is now 24" which puts you out of harms way with most small ships!
Foxmeister said:
I've played both, when comparing a vorlon ship to a White Star just on what is written doesnt work, the white star is more manoeuvrable (2 90turns), better speed in general and SA same as the blue star will always make a Vorlon transport a lot less appertising to take!
When getting hit by Double damage weaponry, AA doesnt come into acount, 12 hits and who needs crits. 2 Blue stars with a lock on and you can probabley wave by to a transport.
Easiest way to kill a Vorlon Transport shoot it with several ships, BOOM it dont come back new SA or not!
Foxmeister
Mongoose
Grunvald said:
Yes, but it's a Skirmish level ship. I'd expect that to be true of almost any Skirmish level ship!
Clearly the Vorlon list needs a Raid level ship though.
Regards,
Dave
I've actually found that fighters are the ultimate bane of the Vorlons. The AAF is just not sufficient to combat a concerted fighter assault and the Vorlon Fighters are simply too expensive in terms of VP to use as a fighter screen. Since each fighter can attack individually, AA usually has very little effect. 1 fighter, 1 hit, 1 damage point gone, repeat for each fighter stand.
mollari_uk wrote
This was my experience exactly.
mollari_uk wrote
This was my experience exactly.
Greg Smith
Mongoose
12 hits with AA does equate to roughly 24 damage, which is good for a skirmish level ship. Although has been pointed out, they are vulnerable to fighters.
A 90 degree turn is nothing to be sneezed at.
Like all Vorlons they suffer from having only one gun and the randomness of beams. If they get in amongst the enemy, they are going to die. Skirting the edge of the battle and keeping beyond secondary range is definitely a good tactic. Or simply acting as sinks for the big guys.
A 90 degree turn is nothing to be sneezed at.
Like all Vorlons they suffer from having only one gun and the randomness of beams. If they get in amongst the enemy, they are going to die. Skirting the edge of the battle and keeping beyond secondary range is definitely a good tactic. Or simply acting as sinks for the big guys.
I think the Drahk Raiders might be a better comparison if your looking for a dodging ship. The weapons are more alike in some ways.
The 24 hits worth a transport carries is actually fairly light given the damage the ship can absorb and the range it operates at. It does have 1/90, but that's not enough to be really maneuverable, as 2/45 agile is frankly better since agile reduces the time between turns to 1 inch (that part wasn't really necessary to me).
The ship should be closer to 14 actual hits in my opinion, but its close enough that it works okay with the new ship coming out.
What is a valid concern is that unlike virtually all the other fleets, there is no variation in the Vorlon hulls... and that is a real shame, as it makes the fleet fairly boring to play long term.
Ripple
The 24 hits worth a transport carries is actually fairly light given the damage the ship can absorb and the range it operates at. It does have 1/90, but that's not enough to be really maneuverable, as 2/45 agile is frankly better since agile reduces the time between turns to 1 inch (that part wasn't really necessary to me).
The ship should be closer to 14 actual hits in my opinion, but its close enough that it works okay with the new ship coming out.
What is a valid concern is that unlike virtually all the other fleets, there is no variation in the Vorlon hulls... and that is a real shame, as it makes the fleet fairly boring to play long term.
Ripple
Greg Smith
Mongoose
I have to admit, I think 1/90 is better than 2/45 with agile. Beacuse Come About and AS&P! are so much better.
Greg Smith said:
I disagree entirely. Agile more than makes up for that IMO. It decreases your turning footprint immensely. Besides, I don't like AS&P the way it's written anyway. Having to AS the turn before is IMO too much of a drawback, but that's just me. Personally, I don't see why the rule works the way it does, but whatever. I'm sure someone will pipe in that it's for "balance" reasons or whatever :roll:.
Cheers, Gary
