Playtesting vorlons.
- Thread starter No. 1 Bear
- Start date
and how often do you get to use the armageddon ships? that would be even less at ancient level.
campaign the biggest game is war so need at least 4 war points to take it.
in one offs you can play 5pt armageddon but then 40% of your force on one ship that will be going up against the likes of 2 shadow ancients, 2 victorys etc.
i dont see the point in the ship at all but i certainly wouldnt see a ship in a normal fleet at ancient level even if they are old ones themselves.
campaign the biggest game is war so need at least 4 war points to take it.
in one offs you can play 5pt armageddon but then 40% of your force on one ship that will be going up against the likes of 2 shadow ancients, 2 victorys etc.
i dont see the point in the ship at all but i certainly wouldnt see a ship in a normal fleet at ancient level even if they are old ones themselves.
if they're gonna give us another Armaggedon ship we could actually use a carrier. vorlons are the only race that comes to mind that have not ONE single carrier so change the dread to a fleet carrier with a hefty complement of fighters and it loses the socondary weapon and possibly some hull points? and considering the way the FAP chart is shaping up, which is good to reduce swarm fleets somewhat, it means that vorlons would have to split very inefficiently to buy down to patrol to attain fighters which they only get 2 of per pick so they can easily be outnumbered at any rate.
at skirmish pritority battles they can trade down fine, but as the priority level of the engagement goes up they would probly not want to trade down for fighters. could possibly even consider a destroyer carrier variant so vorlons can still have some fighters in middle priority engagments.
at skirmish pritority battles they can trade down fine, but as the priority level of the engagement goes up they would probly not want to trade down for fighters. could possibly even consider a destroyer carrier variant so vorlons can still have some fighters in middle priority engagments.
CZuschlag
Mongoose
Just reminding folks who repeatedly ask for holes to be filled because there are holes to be filled:
The Drakh aren't getting a fighter. Ever. Much less a carrier or Fleet Carrier. Or an Escort. Or a single point of Antifighter. Might be nice to defend against Breaching Pods, someday, too.
Oh, well. We make do with a huge fleet hole. Trust me, it can be done; Drakh are one of the hidden power races in the game!
The Drakh aren't getting a fighter. Ever. Much less a carrier or Fleet Carrier. Or an Escort. Or a single point of Antifighter. Might be nice to defend against Breaching Pods, someday, too.
Oh, well. We make do with a huge fleet hole. Trust me, it can be done; Drakh are one of the hidden power races in the game!
so its okay that due to inefficient FAP trade downs vorlons would have to give up on fielding fighters at all because there is no way for them to get them aside from using a patrol point purchase? unless your playing a patrol/skirmish level engagment in which case its a non issue.
If they don't fill the hole i'm sure i'll live, but i CAN at least point it out and ask for something to be considered but we certianly DON't need the dreadNOT as a few other poeple have pointed out. I'd be fine with them filling lots of holes in fleets but i don't really know much about most fleets. it's not me trying to imply ONLY vorlons deserve holes to be filled.
i'm actually rather excited about the shadows getting some love, although i'm sure the next time i play against them i may have second thoughts
and am liking the direction the narn are taking, but things will continue to evolve.
so just have to wait and see what comes around the corner.
If they don't fill the hole i'm sure i'll live, but i CAN at least point it out and ask for something to be considered but we certianly DON't need the dreadNOT as a few other poeple have pointed out. I'd be fine with them filling lots of holes in fleets but i don't really know much about most fleets. it's not me trying to imply ONLY vorlons deserve holes to be filled.
i'm actually rather excited about the shadows getting some love, although i'm sure the next time i play against them i may have second thoughts
and am liking the direction the narn are taking, but things will continue to evolve.
so just have to wait and see what comes around the corner.
If we start talking about filling holes in fleets how about the BIG hole in the Vorlons and Shadows!!
Their inabillity to win a planetary assault due to the fact of ZERO troops!
I mean a new BIG ship is nice and all (Dreadnoought not withstanding!!) but when your playing in a campaign and cant take over a planet what on earth are you surpossed to do???
Their inabillity to win a planetary assault due to the fact of ZERO troops!
I mean a new BIG ship is nice and all (Dreadnoought not withstanding!!) but when your playing in a campaign and cant take over a planet what on earth are you surpossed to do???
(a) Vorlon fighters are 3 per wing.
(b) Buying down only gets punished if you try to split an entire point. Since the vorlons now have a full suite of ships from armageddon down to skirmish, they can do more efficient buy-downs.
A destroyer, frigate, transport and two fighter wings, for example, is a war point spent without losing anything on the new chart.
Reroll it.
In 1st edition, at least, it wasn't possible to roll a planetary assault scenario either with or against vorlons or shadows - they don't need to do planetary assaults thanks to no need for territory and access to planet killers, whilst assaulting a first one planet is an interesting way to die.
CZuschlag said:
I don't mind and in fact envourage diversity in fleets - I like the idea of Drakh having an active fighter defence (now that the Shadows have one as well) and ike the first ideas put forward
I really don't agree with the argument that all fleets eventually look the same - there is absolutely no reason why individual themed ships can not be made for races and keep fleet differences.
A Vorlon Carrier and Scout can be created and retain Vorloness and not rememble "all the other Scouts" - which are of course a diverse bunch. Consider the amount of snooping the Vorlons do I woudl have thought a Scout is logical. A Vorlon Carrier / Mothership for the fighter drones makes sense.........
Again another thread - Matt mentioned that the Pak should "never" get a Scout or a Carrier - no idea why - the carrier is, I beleive in AOG already and why wouldn't the Pak have a dedicated ship to root around the galaxy for "stuff"? It could and should be very Pak like rather than a Vree or a Minbari Scout ship but there is no reason not to have it.
Holes in fleets - epecially in PL - I think should be avoided if possible. That they all fit the feeling of the fleet is also essential.
Da Boss said:
I agree it would seem to suite the Paks to have both a carrier and/or a scout ship. The latter especially I would think as they search the galaxy for stuff to cannibalize. JMO though. The Vree definitely would have scouts though as I see those vessels as the ones doing all the redneck abductions ;-).
Agreed. The idea of balancing fleets by denying them a specific type of ship just seems a bit wrong to me unless they simply don't have the tech to build one.
Cheers, Gary
chiming in one the holes in fleets...
First point is that they will need new product over time and WILL eventually fill that hole... may take a few years but it will happen.
Second point, is that filling a hole does not mean you get the same stuff.
Chris mentions that the drahk don't get fighters. I disagree. They don't get anything with the fighter trait, or that fights in the fighter phase, but they do get carried ships that attack from short range and depend on dodge. Very similar ship idea... just worked out differently in the rules.
They don't have anti-fighter now... but I wouldn't be surprised to see one on a dedicated raider someday given the advanced fighter concepts we see in some races. Eventually the Drahk will need a defense if another wave of the even better fighters comes out.
Compare the Delphi, Oracle, Leshath, Eyehawk, Shyarie, shakara, Vaarl, Corvan... all very very different.
Having access to the same traits (or it's equivalent) does not make races the same.
Leaving holes in fleets does not make the unique in the cool sense... it just makes then damaged. A man missing a hand is different than one who isn't, but that doesn't mean they have an equal chance in a fight.
Ripple
First point is that they will need new product over time and WILL eventually fill that hole... may take a few years but it will happen.
Second point, is that filling a hole does not mean you get the same stuff.
Chris mentions that the drahk don't get fighters. I disagree. They don't get anything with the fighter trait, or that fights in the fighter phase, but they do get carried ships that attack from short range and depend on dodge. Very similar ship idea... just worked out differently in the rules.
They don't have anti-fighter now... but I wouldn't be surprised to see one on a dedicated raider someday given the advanced fighter concepts we see in some races. Eventually the Drahk will need a defense if another wave of the even better fighters comes out.
Compare the Delphi, Oracle, Leshath, Eyehawk, Shyarie, shakara, Vaarl, Corvan... all very very different.
Having access to the same traits (or it's equivalent) does not make races the same.
Leaving holes in fleets does not make the unique in the cool sense... it just makes then damaged. A man missing a hand is different than one who isn't, but that doesn't mean they have an equal chance in a fight.
Ripple
locarno24 said:
Why should i be forced to re-roll for the game i'm about to play?
Just because there is a problem with the Vorlons and Shadows and there doesnt seem to be any fix coming in the fore-see-able future unless there is enough call for it here that is.
I find playing planet assault good fun when having to blast apart emplacements while trying to stay alive and not loose too many ships at the same time!
It's not just the Ancients that have problems assaulting planets or holes in the fleet lists. The Minbari lack a Patrol choice and their troop lander only carries three troops and they cannot use their Mini-Beams.
Best way I've found to attempt it, is to try and sterilise it from orbit with Neutron Lasers vs the emplacements while hoping I brought enough Nials to finish the troops off. Landing troops from each ship one at a time or using Torothas as troop shuttles just seems to be a lesson in futility.
I'm happy with the Minbari lacking a Patrol ship, and the Ancients too for that matter.
Best way I've found to attempt it, is to try and sterilise it from orbit with Neutron Lasers vs the emplacements while hoping I brought enough Nials to finish the troops off. Landing troops from each ship one at a time or using Torothas as troop shuttles just seems to be a lesson in futility.
I'm happy with the Minbari lacking a Patrol ship, and the Ancients too for that matter.
I also question why the Dreadnought was made. It seems like it was written up just to have another ship in the fleet.
For my two cents, I'd put in a scout and a heavy fighter for the Vorlons instead of another really big ship. They don't really need more big ships because the ships they have in those slots already serve the multiple purposes they need to.
For my two cents, I'd put in a scout and a heavy fighter for the Vorlons instead of another really big ship. They don't really need more big ships because the ships they have in those slots already serve the multiple purposes they need to.
They don't really need the heavy fighter, in all honesty. The Vorlon fighter is hard as nails.
There's no problem with a scout (for all that the vorlons have limited call for them in game).
Planetary assaults I stand by being out of character - the vorlons do not invade worlds and a vorlon ship with a troops score is wierd.
If wanting to give them the ability to win a planetary assault game, then give them a win if they flatten everything on the surface (suitable vorlon) or give them a planet killer and let them just blow the bloody thing to bits.
Dropping marines feels completely un-vorlon to me.
There's no problem with a scout (for all that the vorlons have limited call for them in game).
Planetary assaults I stand by being out of character - the vorlons do not invade worlds and a vorlon ship with a troops score is wierd.
If wanting to give them the ability to win a planetary assault game, then give them a win if they flatten everything on the surface (suitable vorlon) or give them a planet killer and let them just blow the bloody thing to bits.
Dropping marines feels completely un-vorlon to me.
