PC weapons vs. Mercs vs. Naval

phavoc

Emperor Mongoose
In another thread I related something along the lines of having PC's running around with very powerful weapons. In the SDB thread we talked about how a 200ton SDB with a 50ton particle bay can have outsized influences, especially when deployed in groups.

So does anyone actually allow their PC's to run around in a armor factor 15 ship equipped with particle beam barbettes, or a bay weapon of any kind? As I see it, most ships for the RPG side of things will be armed with missiles, sand and lasers. Nothing heavier than that simply because planets should be very leary of anyone running around with weapons bigger than theirs. Obviously you can't trump the Imperial Navy, and some megacorps might have some very small, very specific heavy-hitters, but even those would be limited in their weapons. The old 800-ton merc cruiser only had lasers and missiles (granted classic Trav didn't have all the same things the current version has today).

Merc ground companies seem to have combat armor, G-Carriers and gauss rifles, but all the heavier stuff is limited to the true military.

How does everyone else run their stuff?
 
phavoc said:
So does anyone actually allow their PC's to run around in a armor factor 15 ship equipped with particle beam barbettes, or a bay weapon of any kind?

That kinda ship would be a bit too pricey. As far as "letting them", if they SOMEHOW managed to get one, they'd have to stay out in the fringe areas. I don't use the 3I setting so YMMV.
 
You have two issues:

1. Radiation

2. WMDs

Turreted sandcasters and lasers should be permissible; barbettes and bays probably not. Missiles would probably warrant an inspection to ascertain their payloads.

I think that even licensed mercenary companies would have to use militarized civilian starships and smallcraft. Maybe even light fighters that don't exceed thirty tons.
 
phavoc said:
How does everyone else run their stuff?
My favourite setting does not have armed civilian ships, only the military
operates armed ships. On planet civilians may own hunting weapons, but
all other projectile weapons and all energy weapons are prohibited. The
only type of armour which is socially accepted is an environment suit.
 
In-system, they probably need a license or a contract from the planetary authorities, separate or explicitly stated. If you transport them over interstellar distances, you probably need the Imperium subsector authorities to sign off on that.
 
ShawnDriscoll said:
phavoc said:
How does everyone else run their stuff?

Depends on the character I'm role-playing ...
The thread title: "PC weapons vs. Mercs vs. Naval"?????

Why can't PCs be Mercs or Naval?

One GM I play with likes to give promotions after successful adventures, skip through years with training in between, and the characters can become admirals, planetary governors and so on over time so it's not unheard of for our PCs to have top of the line ships at our disposal.
 
In my game, civilians can only get outdated lasers and HE missiles (and sand casters).

No nukes, no PAW, nothing else on a civilian ship just low tech lasers and missiles.

Having said that, I have run several games where the characters are still in the military and then they get the good stuff.

By TL-12, none of the military ships use those outdated, primitive weapons, they all have Fusion Guns, Meson Guns and PBL Missiles and Torpedoes.

A civilian ship does not stand a chance against any equal tonnage military ship.

Civilians ARE allowed as much armor as they want to waste space on.
 
ShawnDriscoll said:
CosmicGamer said:
Why can't PCs be Mercs or Naval?

I give up. Why can't they?
It wasn't a riddle. It was a question for the OP to inquire why they posted "PC weapons vs" as if PCs can't role play Mercs or Naval.

My quote of you, Shawn, was in agreement with the comment "Depends on the character I'm role-playing".
 
CosmicGamer said:
ShawnDriscoll said:
CosmicGamer said:
Why can't PCs be Mercs or Naval?

I give up. Why can't they?
It wasn't a riddle. It was a question for the OP to inquire why they posted "PC weapons vs" as if PCs can't role play Mercs or Naval.

My quote of you, Shawn, was in agreement with the comment "Depends on the character I'm role-playing".

The question wasn't meant to be exclusionary nor a riddle. I phrased it that way because most games the PC's are a very small band of characters with a single ship. Their gear and ship's weapons tend to be a polyglot of options because a) shit is expensive and b) ref's tend to keep the players from accumulating too much wealth so there's a reason they need to adventure. Mercs funded by say a megacorp tend to have good ships and good gear because their employers have deep pockets and they don't have to worry about where next month's payroll is coming from. And government ships can run the gamut, depending on how the ref wants to play it or present a challenge to the players.

I also was curious if people were allowed to outfit their ships with essentially military-grade hardware while not being the military. I thought how I phrased the examples would make the title make more sense (i.e. do other's let player's run around in ships with armor factor 15 and particle accelerator bays for armaments).

Obviously some PC's may play merc characters, and others could be naval characters, but it seems to me that most games have PC's that are on the outside, so they can drift anywhere and do anything they want (which you can't easily do if you have an employer or are in the military). It's not a hard & fast rule, just a general observation.
 
phavoc said:
I thought how I phrased the examples would make the title make more sense (i.e. do other's let player's run around in ships with armor factor 15 and particle accelerator bays for armaments).

Ok. I didn't understand the title of this thread. But I got the jist of what you were asking. I say that patrons can provide characters with any ship and any weapons. The trick is with getting a meeting with such patron. Characters prove themselves first. Make a name for themselves, etc.
 
One way player characters might be equipped with fully military-grade equipment would be if they're working on official Imperial business (Navy, Scout, other). Why not have an active-duty unit on the characters' mission? Maybe it's a "plausible deniability" mission of some sort.

Maybe they're a Q-ship on anti-piracy duty -- imagine a pirate band's surprise when that rusty-looking Free Trader turns out to be heavily armored, and equipped with a military-grade twin-fusion turret that's hidden behind a break-away plastic shell that makes it look like a vacant hardpoint that was converted to extra cargo space.

Obviously, to get privileges like that, characters would have to earn the trust of some sort of Imperial officials. "Remember that weird sculpture you returned to the starport's lost-and-found? It turns out that it was a family heirloom that belongs to the Count of Efate. Next time you're there, you're invited to a personal audience with the count so he can thank you."
 
In my game, the player's are beyond the edge of the Imperium, so the sky is the limit for what they can have, but that goes for the opfor as well. The more deadly the toys become, the quicker it is to get dead playing with them. C'est la vie.
 
Hey what ever the Players can pry from my NPCs in the way of gear they feel is necessary to do the job they are welcome to it. Hardware has overhead, the more fancy gear you got the more you got to pay to keep it running....

As a GM I let the players decide the game they want to play, and adjust the scope accordingly. I also use the full scope of the rules, and a lot of even the "military-ish" jobs require more skull work than hardware, as most of the universe is about everyday solutions..... Or many of my games are all about the knife and pistol work that defines the core bulk of Cyberpunk/Special Operation/Agents sort of games.

But mostly it is about whatever kinda of sandbox you want to run and letting your players know ahead of time....

Our current Game is all about Crime and Revenge, Having to beat a hasty retreat with all three PA turrets blazing is really kinda a failure in terms of the Job. Yah Sure we whacked a couple of Type Ts and their associated fighters, but that didn't directly pry the girl out of the clutches of SuSag's extra-governmental research facility. The Monkey with 3 levels of JoT and a winning smile was not happy about the fight at all, as he had to pull the ship and all the associated crews bacon out of the line of fire.... And know he has to fix the ship.... Minor Hull damage only fortunately.
 
phavoc said:
So does anyone actually allow their PC's to run around in a armor factor 15 ship equipped with particle beam barbettes, or a bay weapon of any kind? As I see it, most ships for the RPG side of things will be armed with missiles, sand and lasers. Nothing heavier than that simply because planets should be very leary of anyone running around with weapons bigger than theirs.

Sure, but the players also have to be prepared to deal with the consequences.

Firstly, they're allowed to legally fly around with such weaponry even in civilized systems. They have to declare it when they come into the system. The alternative is to have a tense encounter with the local system patrol, be arrested, fined, and possibly have their ship confiscated when the ship is inevitably scanned as they approach close enough to the mainworld(s) to scan. Otherwise, they declare it, along with some suitable "why do we have this" paperwork, pay expensive special fees, and deal with the local authorities tromping on board their ship and installing various safeguards on their ship to prevent them from using the weapon while in-system (these will be removed when they leave the system).

Secondly, there's something I've noticed a lot of game systems don't take into account, probably because they're descended from "heroic" games where such things as "book keeping" is considered unromantic so nobody deals with it. If you're dealing with the "reality" of players running around with such weapons, I suggest you add it into your game. Big, complex mil-spec weaponry is expensive to keep working both in terms of money and time.

The first factor is money: Most people don't own weaponized particle beams so the civilian spare parts market for particle beams is small. So it's a seller's market for the supply of spare parts and they're often restricted by various authorities. Subsequently, specialized spare parts are rare and expensive. Many subsystems can be "made do" with generic electronic parts by a skilled tech with some reduction in reliability and power, but I figure that these weapons always have a few systems in them where you'll need to get "authentic parts" you just can't get around.

Now I'm certain there's the 57th century equivalent of Neckbeards in the TU who stand around saying things like, "the plasma particle wave guide in the lounge holoprojector is the same in theory as the one used in a PGMP so every house in the Imperium has a PGMP!" I'm equally as certain that 57th century's equivalent of MythBusters has shown, yes, the physics are the same, but entertainment projector's device deals with less than a hundred joules while the PGMP's is rated in megajoules; the two are not interchangable, no matter how much a nerd tries to overpower it. K'ari tried to do it and there was a tiny puff of black smoke and a few sparks, not even the dramatic capacitor explosion the viewers were hoping for.

So to get the parts they need often involves dealing with criminals; corrupt supply officers, local organized crime, and so on. Or the players can visit those infamous high-tech worlds with a very low law level, where they can go to the local "elemental assembler" and pour in scrap metal, sand, and tar and that "MT113 particle guide beam modulator" comes out of the other end but those worlds aren't all that common when it comes to trying to keep that bay weapon working. (Of course, such elemental assemblers are highly illegal anywhere but on that world because the Ine Givar would be really interested in a machine about the size of a small automobile that can crank out FGMPs in exchange for household waste ... plus it'd wreck the scarcity economy of the Imperium.)

These weapons are also expensive in terms of time. I've modified the rules to account for the upkeep of very expensive, specialized weaponry as a "Maintenance Number" (something I stole from TNE and Twilight: 2000). The Maintenance Number represents the hours a week that have to be put into keeping a subsystem working. Navies traditionally have little problem with large work crews devoted to keeping complex, state-of-the-art systems working; they want a massive powerful weapon that can put a huge crater in that Zhodani battleship after overcoming the screens and armor (which the Zhodani are constantly improving). That such a weapon takes a dedicated crew of five specially trained technical ratings and triple that of robots to keep the weapon working is just something they'll cope with. Even when they're no longer cutting-edge, the weapons still remain maintenance hogs; there's no market for megacorps devoting their R&D budgets to making a "maintenance free" or "low maintenance" version of a particle bay weapon since the market is small. A player-character party simply doesn't have the "ten girls/guys plus thirty robots" or even the "one guy/girl and three robots" it takes to keep a single bay weapon working.

Organizations like the Imperial Navy can spare plenty of robots and ratings for maintenance crews; players cannot.

phavoc said:
Obviously you can't trump the Imperial Navy, and some megacorps might have some very small, very specific heavy-hitters, but even those would be limited in their weapons. The old 800-ton merc cruiser only had lasers and missiles (granted classic Trav didn't have all the same things the current version has today).

I've always seen that there's a Point of Diminishing Returns for military gear. It's highly likely that the players will be better armed and armored than even the Imperial Marines or Imperial Navy. However, there's a point where that Gauss Rifle with the futuristic equivalent of Pictinny Rails mounting a Neural Activity Sensor, vibroblade, meson target designator, rapid target acquisition sight, and a flashlight isn't giving all that much more advantage that the Marine's basic Gauss Rifle. Then it all comes down to numbers; there's only going to be 4-6 players versus 30 Marines. The Marines are used to coordination, willing to soldier on despite taking losses, and if they don't feel they can handle it, they can always call in more Marines and the Navy...

phavoc said:
Merc ground companies seem to have combat armor, G-Carriers and gauss rifles, but all the heavier stuff is limited to the true military.

One thing to remember is that corporations are always concerned about the bottom line. Mercs and corporate armies will be armed with the minimum equipment necessary to do the job; they're likely to be underarmed than overarmed for a situation, especially when fighting players who have cherry picked the best equipment available. However, again, there's that point of diminishing returns here again. Corporate troops are probably less willing to die, but they're still pretty dangerous because they come in numbers.
 
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
 
Somebody said:
I see the militia and raise by a bataillion of M109A6 Paladin. The days when armed civilians had a chance against the military are long gone.

I'll call you with a battery of MLRS. I won't even ask for ATACMS, just the standard 12 pack. :mrgreen:
 
Condottiere said:
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.
The civilians' right to commit suicide by attempting to fight military units
will certainly not be infringed ... 8)
 
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