Overwatch and corridor fighting

Buships, if all movement is halved, then it is going to take a whole lot of turns to move anywhere - MI would be moving a 2" an action, 4" per turn - not very fast at all.

Makoto, not sure what you are refering to about firezone size - can you explain more about what you mean, if you wouldn't mind - but i have just re-read LOS and it says that any model will block line of sight to any target model if their size is equal or greater than the target model. This means that any MI can see past other MI models, so long as the target model is size 2+. On the reverse side, any size 2+ bug will block LOS for its buddies behind in shooting at a size 1 MI e.g. a Blister Bug
 
Iorwerth said:
Buships, if all movement is halved, then it is going to take a whole lot of turns to move anywhere - MI would be moving a 2" an action, 4" per turn - not very fast at all.

Oh, I agree. I'd prefer it to be played as an "outdoors" mission for those reasons, but technically a spaceship interior or planetary base or laboratory is a structure. I'll probably need to pick and choose a mix of the rules, allowing normal movement but banning jumps. Hovers should work fine, though.
 
Iorwerth said:
Makoto, not sure what you are refering to about firezone size - can you explain more about what you mean, if you wouldn't mind
Weapons w/auto trait (ie Morita) create a 6" firezone around the target. Damage dice is allocated among all models within the area (friends and foes alike), meaning a lot of friendly fire within buildings - as long as MIs are within 6" of the bugs that is, but that's very easy in confined spaces.
 
Thanks Makoto. I see what you mean.

Do you have to have line of sight to all targets before casulties are taken to be able to hit an enemy?

i.e. if you have a narrow corridor with a line of warrior bugs queing up in it, one warrior wide, can you only shoot at the front one, as your line of sight will be blocked to the ones behind and so the squad cannot target them? If you can target past the first one then there should not be much problem with the 6" firezone, as you just target the one at least 6" away from you.

Also, if you have a single model with an auto trait firing at a single warrior less then 6" distance, can the model friendly fire himself, or would it only be his buddies?
 
A Squad does not allocate dice to itself when it generates a Fire Zone, other closeby troopers are fair game though. Lethal Zones also effect all and sundry, including the structure, re-rolling misses too.

Using the LOS both ways ruling if you can see the front memeber of an enemy squad you can see members of that squad further back. so if a squad of warriors forms a convinient queue you can pick the middle one as the 'target'.

Cheers
Mark
 
This is one of the more annoying things with SST. "You can see that private's foot, so you can hit the entire squad that is standing behind that ten story building." Hopefully this is ironed out in the new rules.
 
Using the "1st" edition rules would allow a fire-zone to be set up behind the front unit of a file of Warrior Bugs, so this would minimise FF and pile up bodies quickly. Iirc, SH used one-tile wide corridors and used literal LOS, so that only the man on point was shooting down hallways. If you had a flamer guy in second position, you had to move your point man laterally in an intersection to spring the flamer into LOS action, again iirc. Before I ever present the corridor section article, I'd like to study the SST:Evo rules and see (like dyssnowman) if there is a refinement in the LOS rules that could give a different flavor to the sequence. I'm trying to strike a compromise that stays true to the SST universe but reminds players of past memories :wink: .
 
I have actually been working on something similar to this except that it is tunnel fighting rather than corridor fighting. I ran it for a group at our fall gaming convention (Atomicon) and it worked fairly well. Still some "bugs", but overall it went fairly smoothly. The most impressive bit was when the a Pathfinder with a triple thud managed to take out two guard bugs with one shot!

Of course then they found the tanker... :twisted:
 
Dyssnowman, what rule changes did you make, if any?

I figure whatever system you use in STT there are bound to be bugs.
 
MarkNorfolk

Using the LOS both ways ruling if you can see the front memeber of an enemy squad you can see members of that squad further back. so if a squad of warriors forms a convinient queue you can pick the middle one as the 'target'.

I have just been looking at Signs&Portents No.36 Wargames. In the article, Shielding Units in Starship Troopers, it says in the opening paragraph "Even if models are in the same unit, they block LoS to models in the same unit behind them."

Doesn't this mean that warrior bugs of size2+ block lines of sight to size 1 troopers, even to other models of their own unit behind. If this is the case, then MI unit fire against warriors in line in a corridor can only target the first one?
 
Iorwerth said:
MarkNorfolk

Using the LOS both ways ruling if you can see the front memeber of an enemy squad you can see members of that squad further back. so if a squad of warriors forms a convinient queue you can pick the middle one as the 'target'.

I have just been looking at Signs&Portents No.36 Wargames. In the article, Shielding Units in Starship Troopers, it says in the opening paragraph "Even if models are in the same unit, they block LoS to models in the same unit behind them."

Doesn't this mean that warrior bugs of size2+ block lines of sight to size 1 troopers, even to other models of their own unit behind. If this is the case, then MI unit fire against warriors in line in a corridor can only target the first one?

This is something that I almost commented on last night. Let's take it step by step quoting from the rules and see how this can be sorted out. First, the intro rules on LOS say LOS "is drawn from the centre point of each firing model to the target model. If there is anything in the way, like terrain pieces or other models, the line of sight may be obscured or blocked altogether. Whether intervening terrain or models oscure or block a target is determined by Size."

OK so far. This backs up the S&P comment that Iorwerth read. Because this is focusing on corridor fighting in particular, let's think in terms of fighting a "linear battle" example:

Code:
_____________________________________

  D C B A     <- - ->      1 2 3 4
_____________________________________

Arachnid Warriors are on the left (alphas) and the MI troopers are on the right (numerics) and are facing each other.

The first rulebook bullet-pointed LOS rule states: "Any intervening terrain or models will block line of sight to the target model if their Size is equal to or greater than the target model."

This seems at first to contradict the LOS graphic example on page 33 that says that Trooper 2 can shoot past the M8 Marauder Sergeant, until you notice that it says that he can because the Sergeant is in his squad. So this should mean that units in your own squad cannot block LOS to a target, regardless of Size (the M8 is Size 3). The page 33 example would tend to tell me that the first LOS bullet-point rule needed to say "excluding models in your own squad". If read that way, then the rule would really mean that terrain, models in other friendly squads and enemy models could block LOS to a desired target. I'm ok with that adjustment, so now let's see how it can be applied to the corridor fight example above. Since frontal MI models should not block LOS, all of the MI troopers should be able to target Warrior A, but that model would block LOS to any other Warriors (using the stated book rules above). The next part might be better understood if one was to imagine that all of the Warriors were using ranged weapons like the MI (I thought I'd just confuse you all more and toss that in). If we now apply a very often repeated "IMPORTANT" rule (the fifth and last bullet-pointed LOS rule): "IMPORTANT: Line of sight always works both ways. If your unit draws line of sight to an enemy unit, that enemy unit may draw line of sight to your unit."

After reading this, now reference the same corridor example above. This should allow for the MI to now target any of the Warriors behind Warrior A because if Warrior B could "shoot" Trooper 1 (seeing transparently through Warrior A in its squad ), then Trooper 1 can also see Warrior B as well as Warriors C and D because line of sight always works both ways, right? I think this is what dyssnowman was referring to when he mentioned the "private's foot". :wink: as well as MarkNorfolk's comment. In other words, "You can shoot anything that can shoot you". One way to resolve all of this would be to say that there is one exception to the standard of 2-way LOS. You would have to determine that "squad transparency" is really for your own squad only, and that other friendly squads as well as enemy squads are "opaque". This would then become the classicly-described "exception to the rule" of line of sight always working both ways.

If I have made any mistakes here, please "educate" me. :) Otherwise, dyssnowman should now be doing a happy dance and his "private's shoe" is the only thing that can be shot at. :wink:
 
Actually the "private's foot" remark was regarding the current cover rules. Let's see...

/***\
A /*****\
B \*****\
C /***/
\***/
D 1
2
3

Alright. Say that the *** are a rock outcropping blocking line of sight, ABCD are a unit of warrior bugs, and 123 are a unit of MI or Skinnies.

According to the current LOS rules because troopers 123 have LOS to bug D and bug D is a member of the same unit as bugs ABC, troopers 123 can shot at all of the bugs even though they technically can not see a majority of them. Personally, I think that it would make more sense that D and only D could be hit as the rest are out of sight. This is what I meant by the private's foot.
 
Well, in your example I'd say it was a Warrior Bug's privates, but that's just me. :lol:

This is a very similar discussion as to what's happening over in the BF:E forum, is it not?

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/p...&postorder=asc&highlight=cover+rules&start=75.

It's the difference between full-out skirmish level play and squad level "abstractions", in order to speed up gameplay (Mongoose's niche as I see it). It wouldn't be so bad if what you were using on the table was a generic squad marker. The visual appeal though drops away fast and the game suddenly starts looking more like a tactical map rather than a terrain board (and not what we want). The new Fireteam rules should then be a trend towards more of a skirmish feel, but don't directly address the LOS ambiguity. Here is another twist because we are discussing a sci-fi game: does an Arachnid hive mind always "see" an enemy as long as at least one Bug unit maintains LOS? I would say yes, but any fire would be limited to "artillery" style weapons. As an admitted grasp at PSB, you could always assume that the MI weapons had smart bullets that flew over the rocks and exploded downward. Hey, aren't those being developed for real currently? :wink:
 
Yes, the same thing was asked on the BF:Evo forum, and after looking through the rules that they have released I found that it is addressed. If you don't have LOS then you can't hit it. which makes a lot more sense than the current SST system.
 
dyssnowman said:
Yes, the same thing was asked on the BF:Evo forum, and after looking through the rules that they have released I found that it is addressed. If you don't have LOS then you can't hit it. which makes a lot more sense than the current SST system.

Imagines dyssnowman doing the happy dance :wink: . Well, you've said that for quite awhile, so you must feel that you might have had some influence in them addressing the change. Hey, wait a minute. Now that the real world is developing smart bullets that can fire at out-of-LOS targets, I must tell MGP to review both ST:E and BF:E, right? (ducks out of LOS to evade multiple thrown objects). :P :lol:
 
BuShips said:
Well, you've said that for quite awhile, so you must feel that you might have had some influence in them addressing the change.

Not really, I just read it in the rules that they posted. You know, reading? It's looking at all of those funny squiggles and gaining some knowledge from them? :P :lol:

BuShips said:
Hey, wait a minute. Now that the real world is developing smart bullets that can fire at out-of-LOS targets, I must tell MGP to review both ST:E and BF:E, right? (ducks out of LOS to evade multiple thrown objects). :P :lol:

I know nothing of this real world of which you speak, only my own little delusional one (which has an internet connection that lets me read things posted by Mongoose). And don't worry... Hiro is the one that throws things. :P :lol:
 
dyssnowman said:
BuShips said:
Well, you've said that for quite awhile, so you must feel that you might have had some influence in them addressing the change.

Not really, I just read it in the rules that they posted. You know, reading? It's looking at all of those funny squiggles and gaining some knowledge from them? :P :lol:

My mistake :oops:. "Reading"? Wasn't that one of the railroads on the U.S. Monopoly board? :wink: Oh that's right, that one is pronounced "Red-ding". :lol:
 
Iorwerth said:
Either way, the flamer cannot get around the corner to burn the bugs before they can leap on him and tear him limb from limb and dance in his entrails.

That's why you charge with bunch of cap trooppers front of you to take the brunt of bug attack :D
 
So far as I can tell, the rules state:

1. The target of a shoot order must be within weapon range and have an unobstructed LoS to it. Models unable to shoot at the target miss out on the shoot actiion

2. ANY intervening terrain or model will block LOS to the target model if their size is equal or greater than the target model i.e the rule does not distinguish bewteen models that are part of the target's unit or not.

3. You may ignore any terrain that is within point blank range of the firing model when drawing line of sight.

4. Los always works both ways - if you can see your enemy, he can see you!

5. Models in the firing unit never block each other's LOS, but friendly models in other units will do so.

Once you have determined the target then your unit creates a fire zone around this model (6" for Auto weapons, 3" for all others)

So the rules at the moment just limit the models in the unit that can fire based on whether they have LOS to the target model, not to other models within the fire zone.

But, presumably, there must be at least one model in the firing unit that can trace a LOS to an enemy model in the fire zone, for that enemy model to be a potential target. If this is not the case, because of a strict, line by line interpretation of the rules, then the rules must have made a mistake. I cannot see why the rules would think that such a thing would be a good idea. If no one can see a model within the fire zone, i.e. cannot shoot at it, then logic dictates that it cannot be hit (unless of course, the firing weapon can penetrate what is blocking the line of sight!)

The only reason I can see for such a rule would be to save time when rolling, in the situation where some models of the firing unit can see different models within the fire zone, but didn't want the firing to be broken down into model by model firing, because of time issues. But even if this was the case, i can't see why they would have to extend this to cover all models in the fire zone, regardeless of whether anyone within the firing unit had a line of sight to them or not.

In my opinion, especially for corridor type fights, rolling each models atatck seperately, coul be the a good way to go. The sarge etc would still nominate a target model. Then each model within the unit rolls to attack one unit within the fire zone that it has LOS to. The firing player would choose which model would fire first etc.

Going back to the bugs in the corridor situation. The MI firing unit would have to pick a target model within LOS. So long as the bugs stacked up down the corridor stayed out of point blank range then the firing unit can only target the front bug. So the fire zone would be based around this model. For auto weapons it would stretch 6" down the corridor into the bugs, allowing bugs to be killed for which the models in the firing unit do not have a LOS (this according to the rules as written). The fire zone would also stretch 6" forward, which is where models from a different, friendly, unit could run into friendly fire.

I hope I have got it right so far - have only played one demo game and am going stricktly off what I have read. I want to get my head around the rules as I am going to play it properly this christmas!.

From all this, my suggestions would be:

1. No enemy model within the fire zone can be killed, if no models within the firing unit can see it.

2. If you don't want to roll for each model individually: For situations where different models have different LOS to different enemy models within the fire zone, the player can decide to roll dice seperately for any firing model(s) that only have LOS to less then all of the target models within the fire zone - hope that made sense! - Models within a unit can only fire at targets within the fire zone. Rather than throwing each model individually, the player could just split the dice between groups of enemy models (groups based on LOS difference), but with no group having more dice than the maximum dice the firing models with LOS to it could have.

e.g. a firing unit of 5 MI - All of them have LOS to the target BUG D. 2 of them have LOS to Bug A but not to Bug B. The other 2 have LOS to bug B but not bug A. 1 has LOS to both Bug A and bug B. Both Bug A and B are within the unit's firezone. There is also Bug C within the fire Zone, but no MI can trace LOS to it. The player would roll the attack dice for 2 MI against Bug A and D and, seperately, roll the attack dice for the other marines who have LOS to bug B. For the marine who can see all of them, the player can assign his attack dice to either Bug A,B or D (as he can see all three of them). No one in the firing unit can roll attack dice against Bug C within the firing zone, as no models can trace a line of sight to him.


This may all be obvious and already within the rules, but i just want to check whether I am reading them right and, if I am, whether my changes would be good or bad.
 
If this is something already understood by those reading, don't take offense but just move onward :wink: . I'm doing this as much to pound various rules into my own head as to add to the discussion, but there would seem to be an exception in not being able to hit an enemy that cannot be seen (Iorwerth's main point, above). I'm not talking about the target model though, but rather additional enemy models that are out of LOS but are still within the target model's fire zone. The rules don't expressly say this, but it can be derived from reading the LOS bullet points and examples. The current rules indicate that if the leading enemy model in a group can be hit, then any other models within its fire zone can be hit as well. The single word ricochets comes to mind :wink:. With auto weapons like the Morita, any enemy units up to 6" behind the visible target are as vulnerable as the target is, and can be attacked. In other words if you can see the target, other enemy models within the target's fire zone can be attacked even though they aren't initially seen (dyssnowman's critique). This isn't as bad as one might think though, as not all of the enemy group has to be within the fire zone. They all would be within the fire zone (dyssnowman's nightmare) only if the visible model was the unit leader, with the other models bunched up within 6" of the leader. If the unit leader was in the middle of the group (more probable and a better tactic), the fire zone might miss maybe half of the unit's models. In dydsnowman's example with the "rocks" above, if the unit leader was model "C" and was 6" away from the target model "D", models "A" and "B" could not be attacked. All of the Bug models would be within command range, but only two models could be hit. And this is still using the 1st edition SST rules. Now I'll need to do some of that "reading" dyssnowman was mentioning and see about the Evo LOS stuff and how it's different.

Another thing to consider is on page 32, under the fourth LOS bullet point rule:

You may also ignore any terrain that is within point blank range of the firing model when drawing line of sight. This represents the ability of a model to find windows or gaps in walls to fire through or the possibility of swinging quickly around a corner and peeling off a shot before ducking back in.

So if a model stays back from the corner the distance of their point blank range, they can still "peek" around the corner and do a snapshot. Of course other friendly models behind it would not be able to participate, but it might let a Size 3 Ape suit get off a shot before they all rush around the corner later. The Size limit for my own corridors will be Size 3, so this can be used as an option in navigating corners. Just as a general comment in regards to corridor fighting, it seems that the Arachnids have an advantage at corners and the MI ranged fire is an advantage in any unobstructed straight sections. This just reflects the nature of the two sides, of course.
 
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