Overwatch and corridor fighting
- Thread starter Iorwerth
- Start date
Having a blip system might be good. Maybe it could work in a similiar way to the tunneling rules, except that the Bug player can buy false blip markers, just to confuse the enemy. This would mean that some of his bugs are visable, but some can be hidden.
Personally, however, I think that where an MI cannot see a Bug unit the unit should not be placed on the board. instead the bug player can place blip type markers on the board, which when an MI comes within line of sight of, he reveals and places the models on the board. The Bug player would obviously need decoy markers. I am unusre if this would unbalance the game in favour of the bugs, but it would make things more interesting and dynamic for the MI player.
Personally, however, I think that where an MI cannot see a Bug unit the unit should not be placed on the board. instead the bug player can place blip type markers on the board, which when an MI comes within line of sight of, he reveals and places the models on the board. The Bug player would obviously need decoy markers. I am unusre if this would unbalance the game in favour of the bugs, but it would make things more interesting and dynamic for the MI player.
I suppose you could allow the use of Jump jets inside roofed areas, but it does not seem to be that realistic. Allowing it would mean the models are doing the equivalent of going horizontal and flying, rather than actaully jumping. While this may solve the problem, it does not somehow seem the right answer.
Also, has anyone had any thoughts about the 'overwatch' idea I posted?
Also, has anyone had any thoughts about the 'overwatch' idea I posted?
There are rules in the main book, IIRC - which govern where jumping and artillery weapons may be used. There is a restriction on artillery weapons only being fired in caves with a certain height or above from what I remember.
I would do the same with jumping - hovering/loitering creatures can do just that, but jumpers and artillery ordnance use parabolic trajectories.
I would do the same with jumping - hovering/loitering creatures can do just that, but jumpers and artillery ordnance use parabolic trajectories.
I agree that it works both ways and would make attacking around a corner difficult and dangerous, but then in reality it is if someone is covering it. Also, to do it a model would have to have a ready action at the end of his turn. Still, I take your point, but maybe introducing some randomness into it would make it more palatable. Off the top of my head I have come up with three possible options:
1. To activate overwatch a model needs to have a ready action prepared and then needs to throw 3+ on a D6 to use it for Overwatch.
2. You could have it that overwatch only works with ranged weapons, which would stop the bug from crunching you if it doesn't have a ranged attack.
3. You could make overwatch work like a reaction attack i.e any 1 rolled means out of Ammo and no attack. You would have to use the same for bugs - if they roll a 1 on an attack dice they either charge and don't make an attack or they just don't charge at all and stay stationary.
Don't get me wrong, I would like to not have to implement any new rules, but it seems to me that without an 'overwatch' type system indoor battles could become quite contrived and counter-intiuative.
Iorwerth said:
That is what I had in mind as well. Since the SST rules already have "blip" movement to simulate underground movement, you just use these Litko counters for all OOLOS (Out of Line of Sight) movement. I would have a "fake" blip however to be considered as a real "critter" (and detected by the MI's sensors) , but possibly used as a "pawn" on the chessboard rather than higher-value units. These can be Infiltrator units, Cliff Mites or Control Bugs. This way a blip is something that is moving instead of being used as a bluff. These might be used as decoy blips to confuse the other player. Of course if a Bug force was not moving at all and was OOLOS, I would permit their location being placed on a paper map sheet, and not revealing any miniatures until LOS is achieved (to keep the mystery alive). I would have Bugs deploying first on the map as well, as they would be in a Hold action- they got on the derelict ship first and the MI has to retake the ship. It would be the option of the Bug player to buy blips in order to be able to react to the MI player's movement path without revealing the number and type of units of Bugs. I probably would not reduce the cost of the blips below their normal cost as when they are revealed there is no delay in deployment as they don't have to emerge from a hole. Remember that I'm trying to work this out in my head, so if anyone sees me not making sense, just pounce :wink: . As far as Overwatch, isn't being on Alert Status kind of the same thing (at least in the SST 1.0 rules)? Unlimited reactions to an opposite player's movement, within 10"? Would this work in corridor's? I can't play these things out in my head probably as good as some of you can, and will need playtesting to grind out a solution. Anyway, good food for though. This is kind of like a Brain Bug interrogation :lol: .
I'm not sure that there are motion sensors in SST. If there are, then I agree with you that fake blips should probably be, at minimum, some minor critter (though in Space Hulk there could be false readings).
If they don't have motion sensors then fake blips would be good, as it is just a way of disguising where real units are. I also think they could be used this way in outside battlefields. But they are probably not necessary on most battlefields, where there are many wide open spaces.
If they don't have motion sensors then fake blips would be good, as it is just a way of disguising where real units are. I also think they could be used this way in outside battlefields. But they are probably not necessary on most battlefields, where there are many wide open spaces.
OK, I suppose blips could be represented as "false" sensor images or glitches. The 1st edition of SH did not have false blips iirc. The blip markers were draw as quantities of 1,2 or 3 (with no bluffs). I think the second edition (which I've never played) had blips of 0,1,2,3,4,5 &6. That "0" must be what you were referring to in SH as a "bluff". At the standard 50 points (instead of having three Warriors and change back), it could be an option for the Bug player to risk his money on I suppose. Anyway, I'm thinking if a Bug unit wanted to move around the ship, it would either have to reveal the miniatures on the table overtly (saving the 50 points) or pay for a "Harry Potter Invisibility Cloak" :wink: blip marker for 50 points, covertly masking the true number and type of beasties scurrying about the hallways. I'm thinking out loud here, but maybe they should be limited to six per blip, if they choose to not stay in ambush mode. Remember that the Bugs would deploy first, and thus do not have to show as a blip as long as they stay in place until LOS is gained by the advancing MI. What intrigued me in the first place to make these corridor sections up was the similarities between SH and SST. Both have human super-soldiers using ranged weapons at charging "Bugs" that are mostly knife-fighters. Both are reminicient of a Zulu battle, with long-range rifles against short-range spears. Although historically some Zulu warriors had rifles, that's what the Firefries are for, heh. :lol:
Iorwerth said:
Well if you can't use jump and need to take out bugs waiting around corridor just accept the casualties and flood them. Somehow I would think taking out enemy who are waiting around the corner prepared to kill you SHOULD be bloody prospect and certainly not too easy! Sounds realistic to me...
You may be right, but it will mean that the best way to get around a corner may be to use the charge option and get into close combat. This would only work if the models around the corner are close enough to get to their point blank with a charge order. But if you can then you can attack them with out them getting any reaction fire until after the close combat has been resolved. Basically, the problem with the bugs around corners that has been mentioned earlier. While this may be the answer for getting around a corner, i'm not sure it is very realistic, as it means I get shot if I step/lean around the corner to fire but not if I charge around the corner to take them on in hand to hand.
Obviously, you can negate this charge option by standing far enough back from the corner that an enemy cannot get to you in a charge action. But in some close confines this may not be possible.
Iorwerth said:
Have you checked the CC values of those cap trooppers?
Dunno about you but I would rather use those hel-infantry flamers to "clear the way". Imagine how bunched up those bugs are going to be for the flamers...Whole brood could be covered!
Sure you are going to lose lots of cap trooppers but narrowness will prevent from entire brood from getting in so you shouldn't lose everything.
Flamers and squad leader behind, rest forward, run and shoot!
Burn the bugs! Isn't historically flamer your best friend in close quarters?
tneva82 said:
Well, it certainly was your best friend in Space Hulk, and that's part of what this is about. Iorwerth started the thread to discuss corridor fighting in general, and I want to work it out for my tribute to a gaming classic.
Also, there is nothing to say a squad of Exo-suits can't take up the point, due to their better CC. This gets even closer to the flavor of the old game.
BuShips said:
Well it's your best friend in SST as well. I mean just try it. Bunch up arachnids into the corridor and check how many d10+2 rolls you are going to get with flamer. That's a lot of d10+2 goodiness!
Sure you are going to lose some cap trooppers but did somebody say taking out prepared enemy around the corner should be easy task :wink:
They might have better CC but they are also horribly expensive. I would still rather just flame the corridor clear than try to duke it out with exosuits. Due to narrowness you can't get that many exosuits attacking anyway(if we are talking space hulk narrowness). Maybe 2 if you are lucky. Then arachnids retaliate and have good chance of causing heavy damage(exosuits aren't invincible afterall). With 100 pts per exosuit and 15 pts per arachnid warrior I have nasty feeling exosuits would get short end of the stick...
A flamer would be great to use in corridors, but you would still have to come around the corner to shoot. Unless you made the flammer an area of effect weapon in enclosed spaces rather than as a stream weapon.
I was wondering how the line of sight rule works in these situations. It says that you can ignore any terrian that is within point blank range of the firing model. It also says that LOS always works both ways. This presumably means that when you get to within 1" of the corner you can shoot around and be shot at as well. This means to be safe you have to be over 1" back (or whatever your size is)
This would mean that if you were facing warrior bugs (size 2, speed 6") in corridors, for your MI to ensure that they cannot be reached he would have to stand 6" back along the corridor.
i.e. Warrior is size 2, so must stand over 2" from corner, otherwise he could be seen and shot at already. He would then need to move these 2.1" (?) to get to the corner. From there he can charge 3.9" down the corridor. Being size 2, he can then attack anyone within 2" of him, so he can attack any MI within 5.9" of the corridor corner (3.9 +2 = 5.9). This means that to be safe MI must stand at minimum 6" back from the corner. (i'm sure there was an easier way of working that out!)
SO, your flamer unit to get around the corridor and burn those bugs, is in for a tough time. He starts 6" back from the corner. In his first move he can run forward 4", meaning he is 2" from the corner. He than must spend his remaining action running the further 1-2" to the corner. After his first move, he is within 10" of the bugs. The rules don't say that a reactive model has to have LOS, all it says is that the enemy must complete an action within 10" - maybe worth changing this rule?). Even if they don't react at the point, they can react when he finally gets to the corner on his second move.
Either way, the flamer cannot get around the corner to burn the bugs before they can leap on him and tear him limb from limb and dance in his entrails.
There is probably some huge flaw in my reasoning, but this will make attacking around corners very dangerous indeed. My fear is that it will make it too dangerous.
I was wondering how the line of sight rule works in these situations. It says that you can ignore any terrian that is within point blank range of the firing model. It also says that LOS always works both ways. This presumably means that when you get to within 1" of the corner you can shoot around and be shot at as well. This means to be safe you have to be over 1" back (or whatever your size is)
This would mean that if you were facing warrior bugs (size 2, speed 6") in corridors, for your MI to ensure that they cannot be reached he would have to stand 6" back along the corridor.
i.e. Warrior is size 2, so must stand over 2" from corner, otherwise he could be seen and shot at already. He would then need to move these 2.1" (?) to get to the corner. From there he can charge 3.9" down the corridor. Being size 2, he can then attack anyone within 2" of him, so he can attack any MI within 5.9" of the corridor corner (3.9 +2 = 5.9). This means that to be safe MI must stand at minimum 6" back from the corner. (i'm sure there was an easier way of working that out!)
SO, your flamer unit to get around the corridor and burn those bugs, is in for a tough time. He starts 6" back from the corner. In his first move he can run forward 4", meaning he is 2" from the corner. He than must spend his remaining action running the further 1-2" to the corner. After his first move, he is within 10" of the bugs. The rules don't say that a reactive model has to have LOS, all it says is that the enemy must complete an action within 10" - maybe worth changing this rule?). Even if they don't react at the point, they can react when he finally gets to the corner on his second move.
Either way, the flamer cannot get around the corner to burn the bugs before they can leap on him and tear him limb from limb and dance in his entrails.
There is probably some huge flaw in my reasoning, but this will make attacking around corners very dangerous indeed. My fear is that it will make it too dangerous.
Makoto
Mongoose
Nope, over 8" away from the bug to be safe - while a Warrior moves 6" size 2 means it's got 2" point blank zone, and can scythe down anything within it!
Another problem - while stream weapons have no problems with firezone, regular ones do: imagine CAPs shooting moritas within say 4" wide room, or corridor being up to 7" long - firezone size will require all of the shooters getting within it, meaning about half the firepower going into friendly fire.
Another problem - while stream weapons have no problems with firezone, regular ones do: imagine CAPs shooting moritas within say 4" wide room, or corridor being up to 7" long - firezone size will require all of the shooters getting within it, meaning about half the firepower going into friendly fire.
tneva82, in my corridors you could only get one , so it would be just like in SH in that the hallways were one trooper wide. It would probably be better to go with standard MI or maybe Pathfinders as far as MI forces. Then I could go two troopers wide. Also, for all to take note of is in examples of combat discussions, this kind of fighting would need to considered as all structure movement, so all movement is halved 
.
.
