Nordheim as Pirates
- Thread starter Neeklus
- Start date
VincentDarlage
Mongoose
Nope. Only individual Nordheimir who left Nordheim ever became pirates - and as far as I can recall, that only happened in the pastiches. Most Nordheimir have probably never heard of Zingara or the other coastal civilised lands, so they don't know they are there to plunder. So far as coastal Nordheimir go, the only coastal enemies they know of are Picts, so why bother? They never developed the maritime technology as a culture like the Vikings did.
However, just because Howard didn't write a story about seafaring Nordheimir does not mean there cannot be seafaring Nordheimir. Perhaps a Zingaran pirate ship (or trader) got up that far north and lost his ship to these barbarians. They realise someone is out there, so they pile onto the ship and become pirates themselves!
However, just because Howard didn't write a story about seafaring Nordheimir does not mean there cannot be seafaring Nordheimir. Perhaps a Zingaran pirate ship (or trader) got up that far north and lost his ship to these barbarians. They realise someone is out there, so they pile onto the ship and become pirates themselves!
This was part of the back story of my first Conan game.
An Argossian ship had been blown off course and ended up landing on the coast of Vanaheim. While there he managed to establish some trade with the villages near the sea. He discovered that there was nothing like the seal skins and walrus ivory in the southern markets and that he had a sole monoply on these trade goods.
In return for iron, silk, and grain, he made a number of voyages up the coast and would also bring back locals who were interested in seeing the wonders of the south.
I do not think that it is impossible for a village to start thinking that they could do better for themselves if they took the ship and started doing their own trading.
EDIT; I see that Vincent beat me to it.
An Argossian ship had been blown off course and ended up landing on the coast of Vanaheim. While there he managed to establish some trade with the villages near the sea. He discovered that there was nothing like the seal skins and walrus ivory in the southern markets and that he had a sole monoply on these trade goods.
In return for iron, silk, and grain, he made a number of voyages up the coast and would also bring back locals who were interested in seeing the wonders of the south.
I do not think that it is impossible for a village to start thinking that they could do better for themselves if they took the ship and started doing their own trading.
EDIT; I see that Vincent beat me to it.
Yogah of Yag
Mongoose
Mythos said:This was part of the back story of my first Conan game.
An Argossian ship had been blown off course and ended up landing on the coast of Vanaheim. While there he managed to establish some trade with the villages near the sea. He discovered that there was nothing like the seal skins and walrus ivory in the southern markets and that he had a sole monoply on these trade goods.
In return for iron, silk, and grain, he made a number of voyages up the coast and would also bring back locals who were interested in seeing the wonders of the south.
I do not think that it is impossible for a village to start thinking that they could do better for themselves if they took the ship and started doing their own trading.
EDIT; I see that Vincent beat me to it.
Some great ideas from all. Historically amber (Latin: succinum, sucinum, electrum) was also an extremely valuable commodity that originates in northern Europe along the shores of the Baltic. It was traded far and wide and was one of the items the Vikings (=Nordheimir) traded in along with furs.
Neeklus said:
Not Nordheimir, but Viking: try REH's Cormac Mac Art stories (available e.g. at amazon.de).
REH's Marchers of Valhalla calls the roving band Aesir (or Vanir?), but the story is about a land adventure.
In my game I'll leave the Nordheimir landlocked, becuase this gives them some "exotic" flavour - in almost every generic fantasy game there are the cliche Vikings; if they aren't found in Hyboria, it's refreshing IMO. But that's just my view.
Etepete
Mongoose
It'd be a pity not using the Vanir coast at all. I'd not give them anything like the viking excellence at sailing and boatmaking though: crude proto-longboats similar to certain smaller bronze-age vessels (more angular than the iron age longboats, and lacking sails) would be feasible. They'd be a possible threat for northern Zingarian outposts in the pictish wilderness. Of course, stray boats might end up around the Barachan isles or even further south.
Either these folks would be raiders, but rather more feasibly and stylishly correct they'd be whalers (now, if you can catch a whale with but a boat at all). A classic would be a boatparty dragged south by some uncommon brute of a whale...
Either these folks would be raiders, but rather more feasibly and stylishly correct they'd be whalers (now, if you can catch a whale with but a boat at all). A classic would be a boatparty dragged south by some uncommon brute of a whale...
Sutek
Mongoose
Even historical noirse weren't whalers and they were one of the most proficient ocean-going cultures to ever exist.
Fish - yes. Whales - no.
I don't really see why people from Vanaheim would be spectacular sailors.It's better than walking through Cimmeria or Pict lands to trade with Zamora or elsewhere.
Does that mean they should be Pirate class? Maybe not, but even soldiers or (more likely for the extra skill points) Barbarians with good ranks in Knowledge (seafaring) or something are perfectly reasonable ... and cool.
Fish - yes. Whales - no.
I don't really see why people from Vanaheim would be spectacular sailors.It's better than walking through Cimmeria or Pict lands to trade with Zamora or elsewhere.
Does that mean they should be Pirate class? Maybe not, but even soldiers or (more likely for the extra skill points) Barbarians with good ranks in Knowledge (seafaring) or something are perfectly reasonable ... and cool.
Etepete
Mongoose
Now the vanir aren't norse, though the influence is heavy. And whaling certainly is very typical of oceangoing scandinavians of the eighteenth and nineteenth C., just as typical as arctic exploration. So the two clichés do fit well together.
I'm not saying they should be even passable sailors, actually it's even better if they're utterly lost at sea, a pack of murderous, bewildered barbarians towed south in a rickety boat.
The one problem is ofcourse the technical side, I'm sure I can't tell what level of seamanship and size of boat is required to catch a whale.
I'm not saying they should be even passable sailors, actually it's even better if they're utterly lost at sea, a pack of murderous, bewildered barbarians towed south in a rickety boat.
The one problem is ofcourse the technical side, I'm sure I can't tell what level of seamanship and size of boat is required to catch a whale.
Sutek
Mongoose
Whaling ships have to be really big, and perhaps a quick Google or Wikipedia search would produce some size ranges. However, technology in Hyboria isn't 18th-19th century level by a long shot. Norse were the best seamen around at around the 10th-11th centuries, but problably wouldn't have been capable of more than harpooning a whale, but not being capable of bringing it to shore. Thier boats were built for speed and efficiency in the water, not the bouyancy it would take for that kind of hunting.
My point is that, realistically speaking, Vanaheim is a coastal country and, as such, the culture could have become seafarers quite easily. Yes, the Nordheimers aren't Norse, and maybe theyaren't as inclined to be Piratical as a culture...
...but, under Background SKills, as a race, Nordheimers can choose Profession (farmer or sailor).
Seems pretty open and shut to me. :wink:
My point is that, realistically speaking, Vanaheim is a coastal country and, as such, the culture could have become seafarers quite easily. Yes, the Nordheimers aren't Norse, and maybe theyaren't as inclined to be Piratical as a culture...
...but, under Background SKills, as a race, Nordheimers can choose Profession (farmer or sailor).
Seems pretty open and shut to me. :wink:
VincentDarlage
Mongoose
Eskimos have been hunting whales for thousands of years. Their boats were not that big.
Nordheimir are not Eskimos, of course, but if the Eskimos could do it, conceivably so could coastal Vanir and Picts.
(I don't understand why the core rules give those background skills to the Nordheimir, which is why I provided variant background skills in Hyboria's Fiercest, Finest and Fallen. Although Vanaheim is a coastal nation - most of the nation does not live on the coast.)
Nordheimir are not Eskimos, of course, but if the Eskimos could do it, conceivably so could coastal Vanir and Picts.
(I don't understand why the core rules give those background skills to the Nordheimir, which is why I provided variant background skills in Hyboria's Fiercest, Finest and Fallen. Although Vanaheim is a coastal nation - most of the nation does not live on the coast.)
Sutek
Mongoose
Eskimos ate whale, but they did not go whaling.
If whales were killed then they were either cornered in narrow inlets and shot repeatedly with arrows, sometimes poison tipped ones, or they were run aground by concerted effort and massed boats. Also, they would have been smaller sized whales (cetaceans is a better term here to avoid implying sperm whale sized mammals). At any rate, Eskimos use a shore-based whaling technique where they catch small to medium sized whales (a bowhead can reach about 20' long) but Norsemen simply didn't go out hunting anything of even that size, opting to instead take smaller whales (such as pilot whales - 15'-18'in length) buy the same methods (running aground or repeated spearing).
The norse were also good with boats inland as well as at sea. Maybe the Norheimers are given profession (sailor) as an otion to reflect thier boating skills along inland rivers as well as the more rare coastal communities being sea-goers?
If whales were killed then they were either cornered in narrow inlets and shot repeatedly with arrows, sometimes poison tipped ones, or they were run aground by concerted effort and massed boats. Also, they would have been smaller sized whales (cetaceans is a better term here to avoid implying sperm whale sized mammals). At any rate, Eskimos use a shore-based whaling technique where they catch small to medium sized whales (a bowhead can reach about 20' long) but Norsemen simply didn't go out hunting anything of even that size, opting to instead take smaller whales (such as pilot whales - 15'-18'in length) buy the same methods (running aground or repeated spearing).
The norse were also good with boats inland as well as at sea. Maybe the Norheimers are given profession (sailor) as an otion to reflect thier boating skills along inland rivers as well as the more rare coastal communities being sea-goers?
VincentDarlage
Mongoose
Since I am a non-whaler then, can you explain to me the difference between hunting whales and whaling? It seems to me the Eskimos actively hunted whales and succeeded at it, thus meaning that the Vanir can also actively hunt whales and succeed, either by massed boats or shore-based hunting techniques.
I wasn't using "whaling" as a technical term, but to mean the intentional hunting and killing of whales. I also did not mean to imply sperm whale sized mammels, but simply "whales" as a generic. If I had meant sperm whales, I would have said sperm whales. Just because they hunted smaller whales does not mean they did not hunt and kill whales.
My point was that Eskimos hunted whales, killed them, and used smaller boats (or none at all) than you implied when you said "Whaling ships have to be really big."
I will admit I may have erred when I mistook "whaling" to mean "hunt and kill whales." I don't know any other definition.
I wasn't using "whaling" as a technical term, but to mean the intentional hunting and killing of whales. I also did not mean to imply sperm whale sized mammels, but simply "whales" as a generic. If I had meant sperm whales, I would have said sperm whales. Just because they hunted smaller whales does not mean they did not hunt and kill whales.
My point was that Eskimos hunted whales, killed them, and used smaller boats (or none at all) than you implied when you said "Whaling ships have to be really big."
I will admit I may have erred when I mistook "whaling" to mean "hunt and kill whales." I don't know any other definition.
Sutek
Mongoose
VincentDarlage said:
Sure. Whaling was perfected in the 17th and 18th ceturies when boats were big enough to go out into the ocean and harpoon whales, killing them and butchering them at sea to bring the bits back to the mainland.
Hunting whales consists of less technological means and usually consists of either killing a whale near the shore so it it is easy to butcher there, or "corraling" whales through the use of multiple boats and driving them ashore, again to butcher there.
Both Norsemen and Eskimos conduct near-shore hunting of whales. They dont' go out into the ocean as moder whalers do. Eskimos hunt single, larger whales, while the Norse hunted mutiple smaller species typically.
VincentDarlage said:
Nah, it wasn't you necessariyl, but that most of the posts here seemed to be implying huge whales or goin gout to see to kill whales. Neither would be the case for a late iron age culture like the Nordheimers, although they'd likely hunt whales much like historical Norse would have I'd think.
Etepete
Mongoose
Sutek: I conqur with both Vincents points: I'm not necessairily talking very big whales, just enough to pull a boat, and I'm all for shorebased hunting.
But also: Whaling, (in its "modern" sense) relied heavily on boats going out from the ship, harpooning the beast, didn't they? Couldn't a similar technique be used, but from shore?
I might have missed some aspect of the discussion: I don't say that nordheimr should be pirates, or a nation concieved as maritime, I'm just saying that nautical vanir should be able to be considered as a story element.
But also: Whaling, (in its "modern" sense) relied heavily on boats going out from the ship, harpooning the beast, didn't they? Couldn't a similar technique be used, but from shore?
I might have missed some aspect of the discussion: I don't say that nordheimr should be pirates, or a nation concieved as maritime, I'm just saying that nautical vanir should be able to be considered as a story element.
I have a Nordhimer in my campaign who has done quite a bit of sailing, and he is not a bad pirate as well.
As a nitpicking thing and to stand up for my fellow Northeners, Eskimo is a long outdated word that natives do not like. Inuit is the word that they prefer when discribing Northern aboriginals.
Let the red hairs taste the salty seas!!!!!!!!!!!!
As a nitpicking thing and to stand up for my fellow Northeners, Eskimo is a long outdated word that natives do not like. Inuit is the word that they prefer when discribing Northern aboriginals.
Let the red hairs taste the salty seas!!!!!!!!!!!!
Damien
Mongoose
Whaling: The business or practice of hunting, killing, and processing whales.
I think, Sutek, you're assigning more to the word than the English language requires. Whaling is just the practice of killing whales. Vincent's word usage was correct, if ambiguous to someone that knows a thing or two about -modern- whaling.
I think, Sutek, you're assigning more to the word than the English language requires. Whaling is just the practice of killing whales. Vincent's word usage was correct, if ambiguous to someone that knows a thing or two about -modern- whaling.
Sutek
Mongoose
Perhaps, but my comments were in response to this post.
Norse and Inuit weren't whalers, but were instead cultures who did hunt whales. The two terms are exclusive: the former conotates modern whaling while the latter just refers to subsitance or opportunistic hunting of whales.
If you say someone is a whaler, that's thier job and the entire norse or inuit culture aren't "whalers".
You people are jumping my case here when all I'm trying to do is clarify terminology.
:roll:
Etepete said:
Norse and Inuit weren't whalers, but were instead cultures who did hunt whales. The two terms are exclusive: the former conotates modern whaling while the latter just refers to subsitance or opportunistic hunting of whales.
If you say someone is a whaler, that's thier job and the entire norse or inuit culture aren't "whalers".
You people are jumping my case here when all I'm trying to do is clarify terminology.
:roll:
Damien
Mongoose
I'm not jumping on your case at all, don't take it that way. I'm just saying, by pure dictionary definition, there's nothing wrong with saying someone is a 'whaler' if they do, indeed, hunt whales.
You're simply attributing a far more specific meaning to the word - a meaning that is not supported by the dictionary. Perhaps it's true that modern popular opinion is to place 'whaler' is an exclusive term. But it's really not.
All I'm saying is that by the dictionary definition, Vincent was correct to say 'whaler' -- which just means "one who hunts, kills, and processes whales."
Whether popular culture makes a distinction between a 'whaler' and 'one who hunts whales' I feel is immaterial.
You're simply attributing a far more specific meaning to the word - a meaning that is not supported by the dictionary. Perhaps it's true that modern popular opinion is to place 'whaler' is an exclusive term. But it's really not.
All I'm saying is that by the dictionary definition, Vincent was correct to say 'whaler' -- which just means "one who hunts, kills, and processes whales."
Whether popular culture makes a distinction between a 'whaler' and 'one who hunts whales' I feel is immaterial.
