Nike Class Battlecruiser

[kritikalfailure]

fleet role its still more than a nemesis apart from damage/crew and beam. i really dont know why they are mixing earth tech and shadow tech anyway to get these phasing pulse canons. the ships with shadow tech are almost entirely shadow tech weapons. its an armageddon class ship as it stands. too many weapons all round, not earth style in the least, and havign phasing pulse as well as turreted railguns and missiles is just taking things too far. why not add in mag guns and god knows what else and just make it the uber ship these guys just obviously want. thats the problem with custom ships, the people who make/buy them want them to be uber and this thing doesnt fit in with anything the EA makes. the nike was out before the nemesis from its in service dates, why would a newer ship like the nemesis use lesser tech? the nemesis minibeams are shorter ranged and over all it has less firepower.

I think everyone is in agreement that the Nemesis isn't that great of an Armageddon choice in the first place. Personally I see little to no reason to take it over the Warlock. And I'm pretty certain the Armageddon Warlock would have the Chernobyl-stat-line-Nike for breakfast.

Though really, what are your suggestions for a balanced stat line?

 

[katadder]

how many times have i got to write them out? i gave you them 2-3 times in this thread already. take a SFOS warlock, change the laser/pulse for 6AD mini beams, maybe TL too at range 10" cos thats all the most advanced EA ship can manage on mini beams and maybe add some self repair.

 

[kritikalfailure]

how many times have i got to write them out? i gave you them 2-3 times in this thread already. take a SFOS warlock, change the laser/pulse for 6AD mini beams, maybe TL too at range 10" cos thats all the most advanced EA ship can manage on mini beams and maybe add some self repair.

I think that's the easiest way to try and balance it out with the SFoS Warlock (though I still am a fan of changing things around more to create a difference between the two ships). I'm also assuming you want to drop the command +1 and include a Flight Computer (fits the fluff, as the Nike was developed when flight computers were becoming more common in the EA fleet).

 

[katadder]

yeah if you like. the differance comes in that it has all round mini beams from its q-lasers but they shouldnt be longer ranged than the nemesis cos if they had mini beams that range why would they put inferior ones on the newest ship out the docks? plus cos mini beam, AP and possibly twin linked the AD goes down to 6. yeah can drop the command as it gets self repair 2 or d6 or whatever. this gives you slow loading missiles and for/aft rail guns as well but not the all round AP DD crazyness thats going on with the current nike.

 

[Chernobyl]

trying yet again

Nike-class Battlecruiser (Crusade Era EA) v3

PL: War
Hull: 6
Speed: 8
Turns: 1/45
Troops: 3

Craft: 2 Thunderbolts
Special: Advanced Jump Point, Flight Computer, Interceptors 4, Self-repair 2
Damage: 70 / 18
Crew: 65 / 25

Weapons
Heavy Particle Cannon ----------- B - 25" - 4AD - Beam, SAP, TD
Advanced Missile Rack ----------- F - 30" - 4AD - Precise, SAP, SL*
Q-Lasers ---------------------------- F - 10" - 4AD - MB, AP
Heavy Pulse Cannons ------------ F - 12" - 6AD - TL
Q-Lasers ---------------------------- P - 10" - 3AD - MB, AP
Heavy Pulse Cannons ------------ P - 12" - 4AD - TL
Q-Lasers ---------------------------- S - 10" - 3AD - MB, AP
Heavy Pulse Cannons ------------ S - 12" - 4AD - TL
Particle Beams --------------------- T - 6" --- 8AD - AF, TL
Railguns ----------------------------- T - 20" -- 4AD - AP. DD

* This weapon Ignores slow-loading trait unless crippled

 

[katadder]

that i could agree with. has the railguns, altho u downgraded them from mine as the SFOS warlock has them forward and aft. would say you could prob add 2AD to each pulse array as it is a warship and ur mini beams are not twin linked so that would be acceptable.

 

[kritikalfailure]

trying yet again

Nike-class Battlecruiser (Crusade Era EA) v3

PL: War
Hull: 6
Speed: 8
Turns: 1/45
Troops: 3

Craft: 2 Thunderbolts
Special: Advanced Jump Point, Flight Computer, Interceptors 4, Self-repair 2
Damage: 70 / 18
Crew: 65 / 25

Weapons
Heavy Particle Cannon ----------- B - 25" - 4AD - Beam, SAP, TD
Advanced Missile Rack ----------- F - 30" - 4AD - Precise, SAP, SL*
Q-Lasers ---------------------------- F - 10" - 4AD - MB, AP
Heavy Pulse Cannons ------------ F - 12" - 6AD - TL
Q-Lasers ---------------------------- P - 10" - 3AD - MB, AP
Heavy Pulse Cannons ------------ P - 12" - 4AD - TL
Q-Lasers ---------------------------- S - 10" - 3AD - MB, AP
Heavy Pulse Cannons ------------ S - 12" - 4AD - TL
Particle Beams --------------------- T - 6" --- 8AD - AF, TL
Railguns ----------------------------- T - 20" -- 4AD - AP. DD

* This weapon Ignores slow-loading trait unless crippled

Let's put the crew back to 70 and the threshold back to 20. That never was in much contention.

That being said, hopefully nobody will say this thing is overpowered. Against the SFoS warlock, it gets 1 additional AD on each side and loses 6 AD on the rear. Yes it gets a turret railgun, but it comes to 4 less AD in the end.

The only significant improvements are the autoloading missile rack and the improved Particle Beam. Less dice on the missile rack means it'll have less opportunity to overload interceptors. Factor in that roughly 40% of the weapons on each arc are minibeams, it's even tougher to overload interceptors before you hit them with a missile barrage.

It'll also be tougher to overload a GrEG as well.

Finally, let's not forget that when this thing gets crippled, it's far far far less effective than a SFoS Warlock. Since its secondaries are split over two weapon systems, only one will be able to fire per turn. Its missiles also become less effective.

Now I think we have a ship that the original Warlock will mop the ground with most of the time.

My suggestion to make them an even match:
Push railgun back up to 2 AD.
Put crew threshold at 70/20
Perhaps add some AD's to the Pulse Cannons and/or give it an aft weapon.

 

[lastbesthope]

By the way, am I assuming correctly that an Afterburner on non Aux craft simply allows the ship to use All Power to Engines once in a battle instead of as many times as desired?

No.
You can use "All Power to Engines" as often as you will.
With Afterburner you can once in a game increase your speed by 100% and not by 50% as normal with "All Power to Engines".

It's unclear, check the wording of the fighter APTE SA on SFOS P.12, you can only use it if you have Afterburner.

I've got an old tourney ruling from Matthew somewhere.....

Ahh, it seems to have been deleted in the Rulesmaster thread purge, but I backed up the text.

Afterburners 50% extra once a game using the APTE order.

Yes I know it contradicts the Afterburner trait description, i pointed that out at the time

LBH

 

[Triggy]

trying yet again

Nike-class Battlecruiser (Crusade Era EA) v3

PL: War
Hull: 6
Speed: 8
Turns: 1/45
Troops: 3

Craft: 2 Thunderbolts
Special: Advanced Jump Point, Flight Computer, Interceptors 4, Self-repair 2
Damage: 70 / 18
Crew: 65 / 25

Weapons
Heavy Particle Cannon ----------- B - 25" - 4AD - Beam, SAP, TD
Advanced Missile Rack ----------- F - 30" - 4AD - Precise, SAP, SL*
Q-Lasers ---------------------------- F - 10" - 4AD - MB, AP
Heavy Pulse Cannons ------------ F - 12" - 6AD - TL
Q-Lasers ---------------------------- P - 10" - 3AD - MB, AP
Heavy Pulse Cannons ------------ P - 12" - 4AD - TL
Q-Lasers ---------------------------- S - 10" - 3AD - MB, AP
Heavy Pulse Cannons ------------ S - 12" - 4AD - TL
Particle Beams --------------------- T - 6" --- 8AD - AF, TL
Railguns ----------------------------- T - 20" -- 4AD - AP. DD

* This weapon Ignores slow-loading trait unless crippled

That's fine by me except again, the crew and the damage issue. What's the point in self-repair if there's no crew left to fly the ship? At the very least switch the crew and damage numbers around, and you can then drop the damage all of the way to 60 to force the player to try and use self-repair to keep the ship going.

Raising the crew threshold is just my idea to show its small crew numbers on board and that the flight computers have to kick in much sooner than on other ships (and potentially be lost when the ship is crippled).

 

[Goldritter]

I like the idea to increase the Railgun to 6 AD. Because it´s the only weapon with AP & DD now.
The Heavy Pulse Cannons should get more AD to be competend with the Laser/Pulse Arrays on the Warlock (which has 15" range). Or make the Heavy Pulse Cannons like the one on the Explorer and give it a DD.
So in a 1v1 match Warlock against Nike the Warlock has the advantage of a better range, but the Nike the advantage of a better Damage output. And because both have a speed of 8 the range of the weapons can be a decisive factor. And with the "low" AD (for a Pulse Weapon) enemys with interceptors have a good chance to get away without to much damage. But if they fail their rolls it will hurt.

(And if the change to DD for the Heavy Pulse cannons is made, the railgun should be 4AD so that´s not too much.)

The change between Damage and Crew would be good too.

 

[Nightmares about Minbari]

Well, I'm glad I bought the ship before you guys came up with stats for it, you've commity'd it to oblivion!

Last time I checked this thread, the Nike was something special with the speed and agility to be interesting, but both speed and turns are now down in the mud with the other ships.

However, as I've not been able to sit on the forum for the last week and argue my case, posting revision after revision, I'm aware my opinion will count for nothing.

Have fun

 

[Chernobyl]

not so, I'm just really waiting for some playtesting to get done; I recognize that until anyone uses it its all going to be a bunch of he said she said...has anyone used it in a game yet?

Chern

 

[Goldritter]

I want to start a campaign against Centauri today.
There I can test it.

Which Version should I test ?

 

[Nightmares about Minbari]

OK, when my ship gets here and gets completed, I'll test out the faster/agile version and see if it's broken, anybody recommend which one looked the most balanced?

 

[Chernobyl]

my opinions are too biased, :lol: you pick and judege for yourself...
Chern

 

[timeslip]

Wow, great talk about new stats. How about lets see some comments on the kit and build ups? That is what this thread was ment for.
I now have "all" the castings in hand and will give them to Prelude tonight.
Please start another thread on Nike stats. Lets "stay on target".

George 8)

 

[Ripple]

Hey, Prelude started some of this stat line stuff...=p

I liked the last one prelude stat'd myself. The others are too much Warlock not enough Nike.

On the kit, its actually really nice looking to put mine together tonight. Going with a lighter paint scheme than typical for the late era, but I plan on subing the Nike in with 3rd age if I need a Warlock. EA is a third line fleet for me after all the League, Vorlons and my roomies Narn.

ripple

 

[Nightmares about Minbari]

Would love to talk about the kit, and will at length when it gets here, but it's not got here yet. (breaks down sobbing over keyboard)

 

[Nightmares about Minbari]

PS, anybody know if this is a record for number of pages of posts?

 

[kritikalfailure]

OK, when my ship gets here and gets completed, I'll test out the faster/agile version and see if it's broken, anybody recommend which one looked the most balanced?

Yeah I'm going to playtest it on Weds. I'm hoping to do 3 round tests vs a Sharlin, a Bin-Tak, a G'Vrahn, and an Octurian. I think those are the standard warships, correct?

Here's the stat line I'm going to be using:

Ship Type: Nike-class Advanced Battlecruiser
Priority Level: War

Hull: 6
Speed: 10
Turn: 2/45°
Damage: 70/18
Crew: 70/20
Max Craft: 2 T-Bolt Flights
Troops: 3
Special Rules: Advanced Jump Point, Interceptors 4, Flight Computer, Self-Repairing 2

Weapons
Heavy Particle Cannon ----------- B - 25" - 4AD - Beam, SAP, TD
Advanced Missile Rack ----------- F - 30" - 4AD - Precise, SAP, SL*
Q-Lasers ---------------------------- F - 10" - 4AD - MB, AP
Heavy Pulse Cannons ------------ F - 12" - 8AD - TL
Q-Lasers ---------------------------- P - 10" - 3AD - MB, AP
Heavy Pulse Cannons ------------ P - 12" - 6AD - TL
Q-Lasers ---------------------------- S - 10" - 3AD - MB, AP
Heavy Pulse Cannons ------------ S - 12" - 6AD - TL
Particle Beams --------------------- T - 6" --- 8AD - AF, TL
Railguns ----------------------------- T - 20" -- 6AD - AP. DD

* This weapon Ignores slow-loading trait unless crippled

Expected Results:
Sharlin: I'm fairly certain this one is going to come down to pure luck. Obviously getting the Heavy Particle Cannon lined up is going to be hell, so I'm going to rely upon secondary weapons. The 6AD of Neutron Lasers that the Sharlin has is going to really, really suck and I just have to hope it doesn't crit the hell out of me. However, if I can get within 10" I'm going to release all kinds of hell. Obviously the Nials will beat the hell out of the T-Bolts, but will die to the anti-fighter weaponry.

Bin-Tak:
Hopefully my interceptors will keep the Ion Torpedoes from doing too much damage. Energy mines won't be much of a problem, but they'll keep my fighters safely on board. It'll come down to who gets the initiative roll as to who gets the Boresight weapons on board. The Mag Gun will be the deciding factor, I think.

G-Vrahn:
I'll have to get in hard and fast against this damn thing. I'm obviously better in close quarters, but I think the Narn ship can outbeam me all day long with the Adv Mag Gun and the Heavy Laser Cannon.

Octurian:
I'm really not sure how the hell I'm going to take this thing down. Getting a borelock on it will be a miracle in and of itself, and it's just as good if not better than the Nike at close range fire. I'll be getting out of its front arc ASAP.

So effectively I have 12 test cases to run. Acceptable results will be 5-7 or 6-6. Anyone see another ship I should include in the test (basically looking for generally accepted "solid" warships.