New computer paradigm

sideranautae

Mongoose
As I rewrite the major rules I decided that the weird rules on ship computers need to go bye, bye. There is no reason that every ship system is run through one computer. There would be several separate systems. The computer for the jump drive, astrogator & J-drive engineer would be separate from the computer used by the pilot to control the M-drives. That would be separate from the one controlling the weapons, etc. Sensors will have their own system. There will be data across systems but they will be different systems.
 
Ya don't think there would be "One Ring to Rule them All"?

I can see a starship with a network of computers with no clear leader amongst them, all talking to each other all with definite roles and each with redundancy, each could cover the work of one or more of the others in the event of a failure.

It's also possible to interpret (grossly) that the rules as set out already work this way.

The software tho? That's a different question. Integrating the rules from Book 9, Robots with the CRB is interesting but as I believe you're not actually working from the CRB, maybe it's not pertinent to the topic.

ETA: Computers would be integral to the fabric of the ship, sensors/processors built into every conceivable part. Look at how a current day car engine has become impossible to maintain without plugging a computer into it. Something as complex as a ship will take this idea to the n (As will any tech based society in many if not all of its aspects, from transport to buildings to infrastructure).
 
hiro said:
Ya don't think there would be "One Ring to Rule them All"?

No. THere is no reason for that.

hiro said:
I can see a starship with a network of computers with no clear leader amongst them, all talking to each other all with definite roles and each with redundancy, each could cover the work of one or more of the others in the event of a failure.

They aren't general purpose computers. They have their own back ups. The engineering computer wouldn't do back up as the weapon system computer. These aren't the computers of today. These are what will be in a few thousand years. More likely specialized systems built right into the hardware. They won't even be programmable on the fly. Just hardware modules. There wouldn't be the needed talent nor time to program them on a ship anyway.

Think of the flight control computer on something like an F-35 but 1000X more advanced.

hiro said:
It's also possible to interpret (grossly) that the rules as set out already work this way.

No. In the small ship design you can't. You are stuck with one computer spec for the entire ship.

hiro said:
The software tho? That's a different question. Integrating the rules from Book 9, Robots with the CRB is interesting but as I believe you're not actually working from the CRB, maybe it's not pertinent to the topic.

Yes, this is ship computers only. I looked over Book 9 long enough to not buy it. The rules for smaller computer from the CRB is a hash. Poorly written and thought out.
 
I would love to argue with you on this point but your right.

The computer rules are a hash, the best set I have found so far are the 13 Mann Robots book, and there are some issues even with those.

Mostly as on can't get from the personal computers to the implied Mainframes in starship construction with any sort of logic. A fix I have considered is taking the basics as presented in 13 Mann's robots and grafting on Gurp's Computer size rules to build and build from there. Figure a central command computer controlling a network of specific computers... But a lot of this should be transparent to the players unless they want to fool around on that level.
 
Infojunky said:
I would love to argue with you on this point but your right.

The computer rules are a hash, the best set I have found so far are the 13 Mann Robots book, and there are some issues even with those.

Mostly as on can't get from the personal computers to the implied Mainframes in starship construction with any sort of logic. A fix I have considered is taking the basics as presented in 13 Mann's robots and grafting on Gurp's Computer size rules to build and build from there. Figure a central command computer controlling a network of specific computers... But a lot of this should be transparent to the players unless they want to fool around on that level.

I've heard good things about Mann's Robot book. Someday I should buy the translated pdf.
 
sideranautae said:
I've heard good things about Mann's Robot book. Someday I should buy the translated pdf.

It's clean, well written and pretty straight forward, and covers the topic well with out any groaners like yet another system for handling computers/robot brains. It also gives a consistent system for things like cyborgs and related implants (yes, it cover the same ground as two Mongoose books)
 
As someone pointed out to me somewhere else, you can't parallelly run Core Computers, according to the descriptive text.

But if you isolate them, I don't see a problem.
 
I'm sure you're correct; after all, if computers more or less match contemporary technology development, no computer performing a task we can understand today (i.e. other than one managing jump calculations) is going to need to be much larger than is required for the user interface; take tablets as an example.

Using modern analogies (a dangerous thing in sci-fi, I know and you can easily imagine a central network which smaller tablet-esque things can connect to, either wirelessly or physically - it wouldn't surprise me to see the control panels in the engine room detach as a tablet, so if they report a problem you can pick it up off the wall, walk over to the system in question with it and compare.

The only one I will defend as remaining a big-ass mainframe element is the jump control system - after all, it involves running high-energy simulations on bits of physics we haven't even imagined yet, and it's the one 'calculation' which the rules insist takes significant processing time and user skill to manage.

My one question, though: If your ship design has sufficient processing capacity to run the system software, does it really matter if it's narratively represented by one big mainframe or a set of networked smaller computers?
 
Maybe we need to stop imagining a single 1970's mainframe and realize a 'computer' in a ship is an integrated 'system' throughout with a core control adjacent but still part of the bridge command center. Unless I'm missing a note, there is no volume for the system only price for more powerful models. Sounds well distributed compared to Classic Traveller.

As to software, we have no real world comparison to what a 'rating' capacity equals so let it go as it fits well for the computing system as memory and computing drain. For prices, assume these programs are doing expert tasks today's programmers only dream about creating. These are non-AI routines but with sizable reason and brainpower to perform very complex tasks. For the game, that's not cheap.
 
locarno24 said:
My one question, though: If your ship design has sufficient processing capacity to run the system software, does it really matter if it's narratively represented by one big mainframe or a set of networked smaller computers?

Ship design. My ship design rules aren't a narrative RPG exercise... ;)
 
I've always pictured the ships computers as being multiple sub-systems that made up the "computer". The various sections would have their own terminals and what not. I didn't go any further because I didn't see a need for more complexity in this particular area. I also made a leap of faith in the logic and attributed the main computer as having multiple sub-systems that worked in parallel to process everything. It's a very fault-tolerant process and if one or more of the sub-systems came up with a different answer it was rejected in favor of the majority. The space shuttle computer systems work along this same principle. There are four in total and there are rules on what to do if one or more subsystems comes up with a different answer. That particular system gets ejected from the group. It's relatively simple but works.
 
I rose to the bait of engaging this thread tho I wasn't really sure what the thread's purpose was or is. The first post is a statement, doesn't pose any questions that I can see but I took it to mean a prompt for discussion. But what were you actually trying to achieve by starting this thread?

Rewriting the rules is fine, I'm doing it myself. Each time I take on a particular part tho I am reminded that a separation between Traveller the rules and Traveller the setting needs to happen. To be relevant to this thread, the setting is what described the computers in Traveller the rules and was written 40 years ago with a view that looked backward rather than forward. Rules as I understand them should be there to help describe how the players interact with the world the GM has created. They should therefore be independent of the setting. I've recently seen Traveller described as a period sci-fi game, this has greatly eased my vexation with Traveller as a setting as I now see it in that context. The setting tho bares little resemblance to how I want my sci-fi world to be. Ergo, the rules have to go, have to become as neutral as possible. The surgeon's laser scalpel is out and oh so very sharp!

There are currently several threads here that to me, all point in a similar direction. They also highlight the incongruities that Traveller has layered together under what's known as canon. That canon is fractured and contradictory is just out and out frustrating. I guess you could say that it makes for great debating on a forum but I'm damned if I can see it as great material for gaming.

Back to the thread.

I talked with a friend of mine last night over a pint or two and a game of chess. He's currently putting an instrument into a satellite so he knows way more than I do about this stuff. His explanation in my layman's terms is that each part of the space craft has it's own computer, actually two, both identical, one acting as the other's back up. There's also a central computer (with the same identical backup) that overseas the whole craft and how each other computer reports back to mission control.

As a format I think we agree (with the exception of their being a computer in the overseeing role) that each ship's system would have it's own computer but where I also disagree is with the idea that they are not programmable. A computer is there to run it's software, (be it soft, firm, hardwired or whatever you want to call it) but without it, its just a box of components. Software needs to be flexible to cope with new situations, Hubble's software was rewritten to compensate for an out of spec mirror. Without the ability to change the software a machine becomes inflexible which could lead to disaster. With regard to their being no one on board a ship with the knowledge to reprogramme it, I disagree. The computer would have that knowledge. It would be able to "know" what was happening in it's systems and have an expert system of such complexity that it would be able to readjust to circumstances as needed. I can also see how human's would communicate needs to the computer and it would write the code to meet the need.

There's plenty of talk about AI but we seem to stop short of a discussion about expert systems. The computer of the future I see will be an expert on whatever we want it to be an expert on and it will have the ability to self learn on that subject.
 
phavoc said:
I've always pictured the ships computers as being multiple sub-systems that made up the "computer". The various sections would have their own terminals and what not. I didn't go any further because I didn't see a need for more complexity in this particular area. I also made a leap of faith in the logic and attributed the main computer as having multiple sub-systems that worked in parallel to process everything. It's a very fault-tolerant process and if one or more of the sub-systems came up with a different answer it was rejected in favor of the majority. The space shuttle computer systems work along this same principle. There are four in total and there are rules on what to do if one or more subsystems comes up with a different answer. That particular system gets ejected from the group. It's relatively simple but works.

Yes, in fact these rules will have as a stated assumption 3 computers for each system. But, not one main system as that serves no purpose and requires a less efficient general purpose computer.
 
hiro said:
There's plenty of talk about AI but we seem to stop short of a discussion about expert systems. The computer of the future I see will be an expert on whatever we want it to be an expert on and it will have the ability to self learn on that subject.

Think of the AI on Red Dwarf, ships have to be sentient to a certain degree to do what they do, the computer rating is a measure of that. Even a stupid person can walk and talk, respond to their environment; but a more wily one, is going to be more important in battle or advanced tasks. IMTU, Imperial prejudice against AI, means they wipe and re-install the operating system every year to kill any personality the ship might be developing. Others, such as the Zhodani (ie the Dust Witch in the old BtF), didn't do that to their systems so that each ship was like an individual, or NPC. The reality of computerization is that what do the humans do, now that they are redundant?
 
dragoner said:
The reality of computerization is that what do the humans do, now that they are redundant?

Go out and have fun and let the machines do the work.

Fun can be defined by the individual.

By saying the above we're undoing the fabric of the Traveller universe: no more work is a revolution.

If this is what we as humans have in store for us, I'm looking forward to it...
 
dragoner said:
Think of the AI on Red Dwarf, ships have to be sentient to a certain degree to do what they do, the computer rating is a measure of that.

IMTU there is no self aware computers. A.I. but not "S.A."
 
It's an interesting division. When an expert system becomes so complex it can fool some into believing it's self aware and as computers integrate into the machines I can see where the line blurs but I agree, no self aware machines.
 
Condottiere said:
For astrogation and jump transition control, this might not be a component that you'd want to economize on.

Following on from the argument that computers become decentralized and integral to the machines they control, your jump computer is going to be part of your jump drive and spec'd accordingly. There's still scope to skimp on the details and buy an inferior model but that's all part of the choices made in ship/craft design. Be good to see that option built into the design process.
 
hiro said:
dragoner said:
The reality of computerization is that what do the humans do, now that they are redundant?

Go out and have fun and let the machines do the work.

Fun can be defined by the individual.

By saying the above we're undoing the fabric of the Traveller universe: no more work is a revolution.

If this is what we as humans have in store for us, I'm looking forward to it...

As yes, the enslaved sentience of machines, Hail Strephon! :twisted:

I think you can see where this bleeds into human relations as well. Fun can also be defined by society at large, and imo (using Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs: http://careersintheory.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/maslow.jpg as an example) it can be self-actualization, but in Hobbesian dialectical, it could be the war of all against all; enter the "virus". But yes, it could also be Brautigan's all watched over by machines of loving grace: http://allpoetry.com/poem/8508991-All-Watched-Over-By-Machines-Of-Loving-Grace-by-Richard-Brautigan and maybe both at once. Depends on who is programming the machine, the hand that rocks the cradle is the hand that rules the world, and all that.
 
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