New computer paradigm
- Thread starter sideranautae
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Anonymous
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dragoner said:
If you believe machines will have sentience that is, if you just believe that they feign it by virtue of being able to make complex decisions seemingly on the fly. Of course, it could be said that there are plenty of humans fall into this category...
What's the machine equivalent of "Free your mind and your ass will follow"?
Free your diodes?
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Another aspect is that the Core Book seems to emphasize on software, whereas Core computers seem to be more on processing power.
Essentially, as long as you have the correct (and minimum computing power) programme, you can jump six parsecs.
Essentially, as long as you have the correct (and minimum computing power) programme, you can jump six parsecs.
hiro said:
What is the "soul" of the machine? Plenty will ask that as well. Pretty handy too, in that the machines will be better than us in every way. Faster reflexes, decision making based upon rationality, not emotion; being able to actually interface and "see" using ships sensors or electron microscopes, no being "trapped inside you head" as it were. Define freedom as well, is a marriage and family just another form of slavery? Easy enough to say, no soul, no sentience; next stop Butlerian Jihad.
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Anonymous
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I was just using my Mac's dictionary to define sentience. I was concerned to see the word feelings.
Oh shit, are computers gonna get all butt hurt when you offend their delicate sensibilities?
If sentience is to be aware of your surroundings then a machine with the right sensory apparatus is going to be sentient. Add to the that the expert systems I was throwing about already and it's going to confuse the heck out of a lot of people.
The trouble with introducing souls into the equation is well, souls. Define a soul please? Prove to me it exists. (D, as an engineer I'm hoping you don't believe in souls but I don't like to assume). The hilarious thing is this is getting close to discussing religion as I think that's the primary source of the soul notion.
I sincerely hope that machines don't get all touchy feely and start worrying if their butt looks big in this beige case...
ETA: Why would sentient machines become emotional? Where's the connect?
Oh shit, are computers gonna get all butt hurt when you offend their delicate sensibilities?
If sentience is to be aware of your surroundings then a machine with the right sensory apparatus is going to be sentient. Add to the that the expert systems I was throwing about already and it's going to confuse the heck out of a lot of people.
The trouble with introducing souls into the equation is well, souls. Define a soul please? Prove to me it exists. (D, as an engineer I'm hoping you don't believe in souls but I don't like to assume). The hilarious thing is this is getting close to discussing religion as I think that's the primary source of the soul notion.
I sincerely hope that machines don't get all touchy feely and start worrying if their butt looks big in this beige case...
ETA: Why would sentient machines become emotional? Where's the connect?
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
When it's time to buy a new one.
Though they might be willing to upgrade their dual crossfire graphic cards to a larger size.
Though they might be willing to upgrade their dual crossfire graphic cards to a larger size.
If I didn't make my point of view clear, what I was basically saying that Computers as a separate line item required for starship design are pretty useless. My supposition is that every ship has the basic computer horsepower integral with with its control slice to operate said ship.
From that chrome can be added to said ship in terms of computer horsepower in the areas where upgrade (or downgrade) is desired. said computer/control hardware would be consider to have a rating appropriate to the hardware TL. Overall I will probably use some iteration of the required control software rating as indicated by the section of the 13 Mann robots books that covers that topic for figuring out the a gross network rating for ship's for things like system hacking and what not. (Systems instructions have been pretty much a staple of play in my Traveller group over the past 20 years (More in the realistic information support role that the cinematic hacking of popular media.)).
From that chrome can be added to said ship in terms of computer horsepower in the areas where upgrade (or downgrade) is desired. said computer/control hardware would be consider to have a rating appropriate to the hardware TL. Overall I will probably use some iteration of the required control software rating as indicated by the section of the 13 Mann robots books that covers that topic for figuring out the a gross network rating for ship's for things like system hacking and what not. (Systems instructions have been pretty much a staple of play in my Traveller group over the past 20 years (More in the realistic information support role that the cinematic hacking of popular media.)).
hiro said:
How do "we" as humans interface with the machines? Who says "we" as humans get to decide if they are sentient or not? Religion is an issue, and will continue to be so, as some people will act in that fashion, whether others think they are correct or not. But there is a huge swirling philosophical debate, I think the original rules are just to throw something out there without getting sucked into the widening gyre and hand-waving away AI. IMO and IMTU, machine sentience is real, just imagine a machine rolling it's eyes as it hears someone talking about their feelings. Better is just a value judgment, it will be different though.
As far as my personal feelings, to quote Einstein: "I am unsatisfied by materialistic representations of divinity". I don't have the hubris to say other people's beliefs are wrong though.
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Anonymous
Guest
dragoner said:
Yeah, fair enough, I should watch my words, I've no intention to offend despite my prickly posting persona...
Going back to emotions, will machine sentience invoke emotions?
hiro said:
Two words: Blade Runner
One reason they "retire" the replicants is that they develop their own emotional responses. Humans are emotional operators, but much of that is biologically driven, machines will lack that biology as a basis for emotion; ie no "fight or flight" instinct to short circuit rationality.
Infojunky said:
I see where you are coming from. It's probably easier to just lump in all kinds of automation for the line item of computers. Airliners today are highly computerized, but people really don't see it that much. But putting the wiring harnesses in to connect all the various pieces of electronics is as much art as it is science. One could say that the computer costs also incorporate all the necessary wiring and installation that would go into making the entire system work. So your 1Mcr computer that is about the size of a suitcase might only account for 30% of the price. The rest is all the other aspects of things.
Naval ships have all kinds of distributed systems onboard. Their electronics are often the single costliest line item for the price of the ship.
Unless you are really wanting to break this down into something more I'd say it would be a better use of your time to flesh out what the concept of computers are, and add in things like ECM/ECCM consoles and emitters, electronic masking, etc. Make the whole computer line item more detailed to better flesh out the concept.
I could see "smart" computers, like say HAL that may appear to have sentience, but are really just computers, not truly sentient (i.e. the don't exceed the sum of their programming). David Weber wrote a series of novels starting with Mutineer's Moon that had a moon-sized starship with a very sophisticated computer system. It ran on its own for about 50,000 years and at some point it became sentient on its' own (i.e. it exceeded the sum of it's programming).
I think if you have true AI in your setting, it should be more of a happenstance than created. You kind of side-step the whole soul question there and you also solve the problem of having AI's overrunning everything.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Probably hotspots for non essential connections, and lasered fibre optics for crucial ones.
sideranautae
Mongoose
dragoner said:
Because they aren't alive. They are machines. There is nothing that is aware that it exists. Robot ≠ alive and aware of self
sideranautae
Mongoose
Somebody said:
No. I'm played those for years. They don't do what I am doing.
sideranautae
Mongoose
Somebody said:
Fortunately, your opinion on game systems is not that well thought out. It already is working well in play test. :shock:
A
Anonymous
Guest
Sid,
Perhaps you could wind your attitude back a notch or two?
People are actively engaging your threads, taking their time to respond to your questions and posts yet your responses are increasingly patronising and dismissive or you simply don't deem a response necessary. If you took time to explain your reasons you might find the information you receive back is worth the effort.
There's a lot of gaming experience on the boards and a good number of people interested in improving the rules for all to benefit.
Perhaps you could wind your attitude back a notch or two?
People are actively engaging your threads, taking their time to respond to your questions and posts yet your responses are increasingly patronising and dismissive or you simply don't deem a response necessary. If you took time to explain your reasons you might find the information you receive back is worth the effort.
There's a lot of gaming experience on the boards and a good number of people interested in improving the rules for all to benefit.
sideranautae
Mongoose
Next, I'll be cleaning up the rules for personal sized computers. Especially in the area of expert and agent s/w.
Speaking of that. Requiring a ships computer to allocate 10 slots for Intellect s/w is nuts. By TL 10 (at most) the ability for a computer to understand and obey verbal commands will be built in.
Scratch another 1960's rule.
Speaking of that. Requiring a ships computer to allocate 10 slots for Intellect s/w is nuts. By TL 10 (at most) the ability for a computer to understand and obey verbal commands will be built in.
Scratch another 1960's rule.
Intellect isn't just the ability to obey verbal commands. It's sufficient autonomy to use expert programmes independently - for example, booting up a repair drone and going down to a damaged area of the ship to diagnose and fix said damage without human supervision, or to advise an unqualified crew member how to perform emergency surgery on an injured crewmate.
Reynard
Emperor Mongoose
sid, you realize T5 has already 'cleaned up' the rules as had MegaTraveller and probably T4 and TNE. You're reinventing the wheel.
Mongoose Traveller is Classic Traveller with all the warts but some clean up, clarification and addition without diverging too greatly. Really, I'm fine with the warts or I would not have sunk so much money into all the book when I have all the other versions. It's simple, quirky and still fun. I treat mainframes and ship drives and turrets and software issues as normal for the universe. With that said, I'm putting a cassette tape in the mainframe to swap out Fire Control for Make a Great Cup of Tea and go read a good book for it to finish.
Mongoose Traveller is Classic Traveller with all the warts but some clean up, clarification and addition without diverging too greatly. Really, I'm fine with the warts or I would not have sunk so much money into all the book when I have all the other versions. It's simple, quirky and still fun. I treat mainframes and ship drives and turrets and software issues as normal for the universe. With that said, I'm putting a cassette tape in the mainframe to swap out Fire Control for Make a Great Cup of Tea and go read a good book for it to finish.
