Musings on plasma

[storeylf]

The problem is not that plasmas are too strong, its that it takes 10 ships to just land 4 ad worth of damage on one.

2 plasma cruisers pack 24AD.

2 defending cruisers will shoot down about 10AD if they both have IDF. That leaves 14AD, which is actually quite capable of destroying a cruiser size ship.

The problem with plasma is the xtreme nature of it and the threshold effect of IDF/phasers. The threshhold effect makes small (plasma R small!) amounts of plasma almost useless, yet it quickly escalates to blowing up cruisers.

And then you have the extreme nature of the range, you go from almost totally safe at 13" to dead at 8". That is just not how plasma is supposed to be IMO. There are weapons like that, but they tend to be very point blank range (fusions/esg/gatlings).

 

[archon96]

yes in small games plasma is more effective but in larger games the effect of IDF escalates to be a lot more annoying.

 

[McKinstry]

yes in small games plasma is more effective but in larger games the effect of IDF escalates to be a lot more annoying.

Over time a player will hit the IDF CQ roll only half the time. It is turn in which 90% of attempts pass or fail that tends to scar your view of IDF.

 

[archon96]

when they have 13 ships out on the field even half is a pretty good amount of IDF

 

[storeylf]

yes in small games plasma is more effective but in larger games the effect of IDF escalates to be a lot more annoying.

Yes and no,

From a balance perspective, if SFU feel isn't really important, the ratios stay the same, so there is no major balance change.

In a 2 ship game you have 24 AD vs say 14 phasers.
In a 5 cruiser game you have 60AD vs say 35 phasers.

Either way, so long as you reach range 8 you are going to blow away ships. The first volley may have to deal with all the phasers that are on IDF (say 20), but after that the remaining plasma kills a ship or 3.


From a feel perspective, yes it can be annoying, it feels wrong, and it does mean that, for example, rippling your fire over 2 turns is a non tactic in many scenarios, unless it is to 'encourage' the other guy to go IDF. 60AD vs 20 phasers (40AD net damage) or 30AD vs 20 phasers followed by 30AD vs 20 phasers (20AD net total). It's that threshold effect again, the same thing that be-devils smaller plasma ships (like the war eagle vs Constitution example), or will likely hurt ISC who carry less plasma, and why orions with plasma are likely not going to appear often. If you can't get over the threshold of phaser count then you can't hurt the enemy, every AD over the threshold though is increasingly useful if you can dump it in one go.

It's something that doesn't affect direct fire weapons, photons/disrupters/phasers just hit and do damage. Having twice as many photons gives you twice as much firepower. Having twice as much plasma has an unknown effect, going from 2AD to 4AD probably has zero effect (you did nothing and still will), going from 10AD to 20AD could be quadrupling you practical firepower (you went from doing say 3AD to 13AD).

Just nerfing phasers/IDF would just make plasma even more brutal, but smoothing the energy bleed curve as well as nerfing phasers/IDF would reduce the threshold effect of phasers/IDF, make plasma less of a very specific range weapon, make IDF less of a 'must use' defense in larger games, which are IMHO better for the game play and also happen to better represent some apsects of SFU plasma.

 

[Captain Jonah]

Re the ISC.

Since Plasma's are a lot less capable in ACTA-SF as individual units and will leave the ISC with sod all rear defence just drop the limit on firing them one per turn.

A Plasma F may only do 2 AD but then an ISC formation of CC, CS, CL, DD, DD, has 18 or so rear arc Fs.

With the restriction in place they are firing less than half of them.

Without limit they can fire all 18 at ships within 8” behind them.


It is not wise to try tailgating the ISC :lol:

 

[H]

i had no issues with plasma... till Tnaeva shot down ten of fourteen torpedo's ATTACK DICE... with ten phasers... grrr

THIS WAS ONLY 5 WEAPONS SYSTEMS, SO THEREFORE 5 TORPEDOS, OF DIFFERING STRENGTH.
Apologies if this mathematical, and wording issue has caused you sleepless nights.

 

[tneva82]

i had no issues with plasma... till Tnaeva shot down ten of fourteen torpedo's... with ten phasers... grrr

Well that round of shooting was below average. With the amount of plasma and amount of defences I used average damage should have been 21. You did 10...

 

[storeylf]

i had no issues with plasma... till Tnaeva shot down ten of fourteen torpedo's... with ten phasers... grrr

They were all 1AD torps presumably?

Fs a range 9-12 or S at 12-16?

 

[tneva82]

i had no issues with plasma... till Tnaeva shot down ten of fourteen torpedo's... with ten phasers... grrr

They were all 1AD torps presumably?

Fs a range 9-12 or S at 12-16?

4AD plasmax2 + 2AD plasmax3

I had AD4 ph-1 bank which negated first AD4 plasma. AD2 F/P ph-1 negated one AD2 plasma. AD2 F/S ph-1 negated second AD2 plasma. 2 ph-3 turrets negated third AD2 plasma.

Left just one 4AD plasma that resulted in 10 hits.

Both gorn ships were within 8" but wolverine is blessed with plenty of phasers. If there was similar ship but fast trait to turn 4 and I would be even happier with the ship. Even if it resulted in price increase!

Of course only reason he got even shoot at me was that I decided to be sporty and tried to bust one of his ships. I could have on final turn just go all power to engine and head for opposite direction. He would have been reduced to 8 long range ph-1 shots to try to cripple my ships. With full shields(I had reloaded them to full last turn) and only 3 hull box would have required ridiculous rolling to succeed...

Of course THAT plan got busted as I missed the heading of gorn ships so they were in position I did not expect.

 

[storeylf]

Ok - you meant 10 out of 14 AD got shot down by 10 phasers, rather than 10 out of 14 torpedos, that was what threw me.

 

[H]

oh good grief,

 

[tneva82]

Ok - you meant 10 out of 14 AD got shot down by 10 phasers, rather than 10 out of 14 torpedos, that was what threw me.

Yikes. 14 torpedoes That would be pretty brutal!

Nah he was talking about AD's.

On bit of OOT definitely fell in love with the wolverine during the game. They have very generous banks of ph-1 surpassed by none but manta ray. Indeed in the 8 turns game lasted my 3 wolverines fired photon's precicely once! Other times I was too busy going all power to engines or boost shields to have time to reload them...(did think about reloading on turn 7 and then try to get lucky shield penetrating or two on last turn but decided to play it safe. And then on turn 8 decided to reverse that decision...)

 

[storeylf]

oh good grief,

Good grief what? You posted something that confused me, I was wondering how 10 phasers would shoot down 10 torpedoes, I was just seeking a clarification.

 

[H]

i was good griefing how people spend so much time over thinking things
happens a lot on this board. Next week i exepct an in depth discussion on the dietry requirements of pregnant klingon women serving on the D6 to decide where the waste evacuation nozels are. . . . or demand a re-model to show them

 

[storeylf]

That depends whether the person posting meant what they said or said what they meant

 

[H]

It is, what it will be.

 

[McKickaha]

H

I am making a complaint, as follows;

I was excited when I found your post appearing to discuss the position of the waste ducts on the D6 specifically regarding pregnant galley wenches, since its modeling on my own D6’s is a topic that has worried me greatly but what do I find in your post, other than mentioning my cherished subject you appear to have not made any further contribution at all.

Please explain yourself sir.

Yours deflated

 

[H]

I offer most sincere apologies, and Have to hope you will forgive my mistake. I too am highly excited by the prospect of close modeling of a D6, and as well as the location of evacuation pipes, wish to give consideration to other problems that would arise from havinf pregnant females on board. I feel this is worthy of serious consideration, as it could radically alter the design efficiency, or even lead toa whole new class of vessel, for which the shipyards would change the wing pattern.

 

[billclo]

Sorry for the necropost, but I was looking at the Plasma issue because I am considering buying some Gorn ships.

How about increasing the granularity a little for damage a bit, but do it in a different way? Instead of losing dice due to range, keep the dice and apply a die roll modifier when rolling damage.

Average damage as things are now:

Proposed change with a die roll modifier to each torpedo (torpedo retains original dice, but each die is less effective):

So this gives the plasma-firer an incentive to get closer to fire than 8". It also reduces the effectiveness of Plasma-Rs at long range, but as usual you can still roll lots of 5-6's and score some damage. Plasma-S actually benefits.

***edit, whoops, forgot the result for some plasmas at range 16: Plas-G does 4.5, Plas-F does 3, Plas-D does 1.5. Rationale: the target may be closing on the firing ship, and the torp arrives before it runs out of endurance, which is why plas-f and D can hit something at range 16...not strictly in accord with SFB, but the whole direct fire plasma thing is a kludge anyways.

***

As for the perceived over-effectiveness of IDF vs plasma, how about this:

In SFB, firing at long range at small targets (shuttles, drones, can't remember about plasma) gave a +1 modifier (harder to hit) at over range 12 (I think it was). This is partially recreated in that there is a -1 to fire against shuttles. How about applying that to firing at any seeking weapon over 6" away (half of the 12" in SFB)?

The net effect would be to be still allow one to use long-range phaser fire, but it will be less effective (ie, a P-1 at over 9" now requires a 3-6 to hit, the change would reduce it to 4-6).

What do you all think about this?