Musings on plasma

[Myrm]

In SFB, firing at long range at small targets (shuttles, drones, can't remember about plasma) gave a +1 modifier (harder to hit) at over range 12 (I think it was). This is partially recreated in that there is a -1 to fire against shuttles. How about applying that to firing at any seeking weapon over 6" away (half of the 12" in SFB)?

What do you all think about this?

It could provide a more accurate simulation of previous SFU games certainly, on first thoughts. However it does add a layer of extra rules within a special order against the same action withou the order, which is a bit against the KISS philosophy.
Thinking about this in more detail, first up Im not sure plasma was a small target was it (the energy signature making the thing obvious).
However, assuming Im wrong on that and you want to throw the penalty in - there is already a range penalty for IDF kind of -as with personal defensive fire you are deemed to fire at range 0/1 so no range. With IDF this penalty is effectively sort of in place with the long range fire modifer for Phasers - Ph3s at over 6" arent shooting, and over 3" are a -1, Ph2s are at long range over 6" already so the penaly is there. Ph1s would have that level of penalty kick in at 9" and Ph4 at higher levels. Do you want a 2nd point of modifier on a D6 system for a small target?

That 2nd point of modifier in IDF would shift over 6" range fire from phaser to
Ph3 - out of range (from self protection fire at 3+)
Ph2 - hits on 5s (from self protection of 3+)
Ph3 - 6-9" hits on 3s, 9"+ hits on 4s (from self pro of 2+)
Ph4 - 6-12" his on 3s, over 12" hits on 4s. (from self pro of 2+)

Is that too much of a shift or what you think is appropriate, would you include it for dones as well, and if so or no, why? I think those are the questions we want to be asking here.

 

[billclo]

Thinking about this in more detail, first up Im not sure plasma was a small target was it (the energy signature making the thing obvious).
However, assuming Im wrong on that and you want to throw the penalty in - there is already a range penalty for IDF kind of -as with personal defensive fire you are deemed to fire at range 0/1 so no range. With IDF this penalty is effectively sort of in place with the long range fire modifer for Phasers - Ph3s at over 6" arent shooting, and over 3" are a -1, Ph2s are at long range over 6" already so the penaly is there. Ph1s would have that level of penalty kick in at 9" and Ph4 at higher levels. Do you want a 2nd point of modifier on a D6 system for a small target?

That 2nd point of modifier in IDF would shift over 6" range fire from phaser to
Ph3 - out of range (from self protection fire at 3+)
Ph2 - hits on 5s (from self protection of 3+)
Ph3 - 6-9" hits on 3s, 9"+ hits on 4s (from self pro of 2+)
Ph4 - 6-12" his on 3s, over 12" hits on 4s. (from self pro of 2+)

Is that too much of a shift or what you think is appropriate, would you include it for dones as well, and if so or no, why? I think those are the questions we want to be asking here.

From what I recall of playing the source game, to defend against seeking weapons, you needed to be at fairly close range to have much effect anyways. Ships spread out too much weren't much help in shooting down plasma or drones. Shooting Phaser-1s at a drone/plasma from range 6-8 became a little risky, and range 9-15 why bother? Shooting at sub-6" is the norm anyways in SFB vs seeking weapons. The change would encourage ships that planned to mutually defend each other be within 6" of each other.

Yes, I would include it for drones as well. It might encourage more drones being used in the counter-drone role as a counter to the poorer hit chances. It should encourage more phasers to be fired at plasma to get the same warhead reduction (or an increase of the warhead strength reaching the target if there are no more phasers able to be fired).

I guess a quick and dirty fix might be to give each plasma fired at range 0-4" an extra die (+2 dice for a Plasma-R) of damage to encourage close in use.

 

[Keeper Nilbog]

Sorry for the thread necomancy - but the intro of Ph-G and escorts have got me going again over the effectiveness of plasma. Haven't played the new rules yet (surprise), but they seem to nerf plasma (and drones), which they were designed too. As they have a 'free' IDF special action, and on average 3-6 phaser's in arc, thats a dead S-type without a hard sweat. And don't get me going on Ph-G's

Wouldn't be much of an issues if they were restricted in some way, but as not - i'm expecting fleets of Fast ships, scouts and escorts (as Phasers are still the best (most useful) weapon system in the game).

I always like the Killzone option (mentioned by Scoutdad or Billco), as it didn't require stat changes, and gave the target ship a good chance of defense, whilst making IDF vessels bunch by Race/Fleet, depending on Phasers.

(and i am aware that plasma vs plasma races will be just a messy as usual (possibly more so as the D-racks will likely be used offensively (no drones to target), but i want to take Gorn (already at a disadvantage due to current plasma interactions) against other races, not just Romulan.

 

[archon96]

learn to love the bolt. I guess ill just run up close and bolt away hoping for some crits.

 

[Finlos]

The escort trait limits defensive fire to 8" and the Phaser-G has a range of only 6". Anyone who wants to get the most value out of that trait is likely going to have to pack their ships in fairly close, possibly within 4" of each other which comes with a risk of its' own.

 

[Keeper Nilbog]

That's still a single weapon system (Ph-G), without a special order, knocking out 2-3AD of plasma. I know there are rare, but still

 

[Finlos]

Thankfully Phaser-Gs are rare but the escort trait may make those ships that have it high on the priority list.

 

[Gorgo]

To my way of thinking escort vessels are designed to defend (escort) carrier groups.
As a big gun proponent the lack of heavy, direct fire weapons should offset the advantages of defensive fire power.
I'll be trying them out in any event and look forward to seeing what they are capable of.

Gorgo

 

[Myrm]

To my way of thinking escort vessels are designed to defend (escort) carrier groups.

..and the occasional flag vessel. There is one thing missing in this game, and thats fleet structure. F&E kind of enforces it with build limits, SFB doesnt usually have enough ships to worry too much or the scenario enforces it - thats what keeps these vessels from becoming routine takers in every game.

I am tempted, because of this, to suggest some of the variants hulls (be it Scouts, escorts, whatever) get a Limited tag which limits you to 1 per fleet in a free buy (or 1/X points) - so some similar mechanism. That or a formal fleet build structure ruleset.

 

[scoutdad]

@Myrm: Limited - That's not a bad idea.
I may push for something similar. We've playtested escorts a few times, but we've always self-limited the numbers taken. It'll be interesting to see some reports from others to see how they utilize them.

 

[Nerroth]

Some sort of "Limited X" Trait does sound good.

(Even in FC, Aegis escorts are restricted in numbers.)


Actually, in the longer term, Limited X could be a way of keeping the numbers down on other restricted technologies, such as web casters (in the Milky Way), PPDs, or displacement devices.

 

[Myrm]

@Myrm: Limited - That's not a bad idea.
I may push for something similar. We've playtested escorts a few times, but we've always self-limited the numbers taken. It'll be interesting to see some reports from others to see how they utilize them.

It seems the best way to make them a rare ship....with extra resources added to ships containing flag vessels.

Limited
These ships were rare and/or specialist vessels. There may only be one vessel with the Limited Trait in the fleet. Extra vessels equal to the highest Command Trait in the fleet may be added.

You could put Escort vessels into the category, or indeed a host of other vessels that were quite rare - perhaps Scouts, SFGs, Maulers, Battle Tugs (any others?)

I would also add the following trait (or similar) to Fleet Carriers - thinking ahead.

Escort Group (X)
A fleet list including this vessel may purchase X Escort vessels which then do not count as having the Limited trait, if deployed within 4" of this vessel (in squadron with???)

All of this goes out the window in any scenario you want to make ignore it.

 

[billclo]

Well in F&E they limited escorts to escorting carriers, convoys, and certain other ships (I haven't played in 2 years and I don't have my rulebook handy). Simply plunking down escorts on the battle line without "escorting" a carrier, etc, resulted in a loss of firepower, as the escorts were not designed to be on the line alone.

Now there was a late war development, namely that of the Flagship Escort group, that allowed standard warships to "escort" a flagship, but that also came with firepower loss.

I suspect that escorts will become prime targets for massed direct-fire weapons. Some of them are just sick if you let them get too close to you.

Tony,

One thing that occurs to me is that the escorts might benefit from the ability given to Aegis units of firing weapons, judging the results and firing again at the same targets in the same "impulse" if needed (up to 4 times if I recall). It would probably be a good idea to limit this to say 2 firings, such that if you missed with your first weapon, you could use a second after seeing the "miss" without having to pre-allocate it. Then you would roll to use your tractors if applicable.

 

[Rambler]

@Myrm: Limited - That's not a bad idea.
I may push for something similar. We've playtested escorts a few times, but we've always self-limited the numbers taken. It'll be interesting to see some reports from others to see how they utilize them.

It seems the best way to make them a rare ship....with extra resources added to ships containing flag vessels.

Limited
These ships were rare and/or specialist vessels. There may only be one vessel with the Limited Trait in the fleet. Extra vessels equal to the highest Command Trait in the fleet may be added.

You could put Escort vessels into the category, or indeed a host of other vessels that were quite rare - perhaps Scouts, SFGs, Maulers, Battle Tugs (any others?)

I would also add the following trait (or similar) to Fleet Carriers - thinking ahead.

Escort Group (X)
A fleet list including this vessel may purchase X Escort vessels which then do not count as having the Limited trait, if deployed within 4" of this vessel (in squadron with???)

All of this goes out the window in any scenario you want to make ignore it.

Lets remember KISS here. If you want a Limit just make it Generic and all covering.

Ships with Special Traits (Command X, Scout X, Escort, Shock, Civilian List, Web Caster, Plasmatic Pulsar, Penal, Carrier X, Mauler, Stasis, Troop orwhatsoever) are limited and may make up no more than One-Third of the total number of Models in your Fleet. Or in other 1 in 3.

Now Carrier Groups may need thier own exception but that is for another time.

Also this limit is by Models not by total number of Special Trait or Points, so a Heavy Scout Carrier counts as only one ship or, God help he who fights it, a B10SAA (Battleship/Space Control Carrier with two Stasis Generators.

 

[Nerroth]

I think a catch-all Limited X Trait, with the X being the total number of ships per thousand points (or thereabouts) one is allowed to field, might be enough to start off with.

 

[Myrm]

Lets remember KISS here. If you want a Limit just make it Generic and all covering.

That was what I was aiming at - OK the bonus I gave for a Command ship on top of the base 1 isnt perfectly simple but also that trait only comes into play before the game so it isnt too onerous (the carrier trait is thinking ahead so could be totally ignored for the moment).
I think the important thing here is to decide what ships/traits fall into that Limited category, and by that it I meanit should be SFU ships that were not common in their class/hull - not merely the ships that were rare due to points cost.

Ships with Special Traits (Command X, Scout X, Escort, Shock, Civilian List, Web Caster, Plasmatic Pulsar, Penal, Carrier X, Mauler, Stasis, Troop orwhatsoever) are limited and may make up no more than One-Third of the total number of Models in your Fleet. Or in other 1 in 3.

Not sure I'd put either Penal or Troop ships in there but thats by the by - more importantly a by model limit isnt great for me either - want several rare ships - simply buy a few police ships and get the specials. You could have a formula for class hulls etc but that stepping way to far from KISS. Per X points I think is the better way to go letting you get 1 for small fleets and 2 for bigger ones or simply per fleet limit of some kind. A lot of these ships will be singles, or it wont matter for open fleet games if they are singles or duos, but keep them limited.

 

[billclo]

Looking at the Escort trait being playtested, it seems to me that one thing that seems wrong is that an dedicated escort ship can only use the Escort trait out to 8", but any warship on IDF can assist in defensive fire for a friendly ship effectively up to 18" away (phaser-1 range).

What about the idea of limiting IDF to range 8, same as the escort ships?

My idea of allowing plasmas to retain their original number of dice, but take a modifier to damage rolled depending on the range didn't seem to gain much traction. Anyone have any ideas as to smooth out the damage curve for plasmas, and even perhaps encourage use under 8"?

 

[McKinstry]

The escort trait grants an automatic ability to defend within 8" but IDF still needs to be rolled for with only a 50% chance (assuming a 'normal' crew rating). Maybe cut IDF range to 16 (12 at worst) otherwise unless escorts get their numbers limited by composition rules, you are only creating even more reasons to load up on escorts since IDF would be nerfed.

 

[Rambler]

The IDF range against plasma is already limited to 18" unless you have a Battlestation.

I do not see a reason to apply any restrictions on IDF. Escorts are special if they want a larger range they have to use IDF just like everyone else. Which has the same pro's and cons as everyone else.

 

[nekomata fuyu]

Don't forget that an Escort can still use the IDF special action. Maybe give them a bonus to their roll to pass IDF, or maybe even let them autopass. It would still mean that they're giving up their SA after all, just so that they can boost the range on their phasers.