Musings on plasma

[storeylf]

Thinking about the ISC PPD has made me think quite a bit about how plasma works and the way it affects opponents decisions.

There are 2 things that concern me to some extent that I have seen in games with Romulans and Gorns, but I am especially concerned with what may happen with the ISC (and hydran/lyran).

Firstly, whilst large amounts of plasma is hard to handle, and can crush several ships in one go, smaller amounts of plasma are easily handled. Secondly, plasma has little effect on how close an opponent gets, the only range he is usually bothered about is range 8 (12 to some extent, but 8 mainly). Once he is at range 8 he has no concern about going closer as plasma does not get any better (and in the case of the plasma empires they have no other weapon that gets better after range 8 either, as they are all Phaser 1 empires).

In the SFU plasma has a noticeable affect on enemies wanting to get very close to you, and does significantly more damage up close, even small plasma can be something that you try to avoid, 2 plasma F from a destroyer is not something you willingly take on the nose.

Whilst they are not in yet, both Lyran and hydran have extremely potent point blank range weapons, yet in ACTA they would suffer no penalty for getting that close. The ISC have the PPD which has a 'cannot be used at a close range' feature, which makes getting very close to them a benefit - if you can handle the plasma. Whilst we do not know the ACTA PPD will have the same myopioc zone, if it does there is no issue in an enemy closing from range 8" to range 0", the plasma certainly won't put him off.

The other issue for the ISC, is that they rely a lot more on ships with less plasma than Roms/Gorns. It is Destroyers/Frigates on the gun line, with just a couple of plasma F each that are suppsoed to dissuade an attacker from closing, maybe backed up by a small handful of plasma S from the bigger ships behind. In ACTA that does not really feel like it will work, the nature of plasma in this game is that you need a certain mass of plasma for it to be effective (in order to overcome the very effective phasers), and I doubt that will happen with ISC, making their whole design philosophy rather dubious.

As an example, 4 destroyers from the ISC have just 8 plasma F forward, in FC they cost almost exactly the same as a Gorn destoyer. Now they may be different in ACTA, but if 4 destoyers cost around 400 pts they are going to struggle to do what they are intended to do - make it hard to get at the PPD ships behind. Additionally they have rear firing plasma, which are partly to fire at stuff that gets behind that line. But in ACTA 2AD of plasma is nothing, and easily handled by rear firing phasers on most ships.


To be clear, I have no great problem with plasma in fleet actions, large amounts can seriously hammer an enemy. And on larger cruiser size ships so far it is OK, as they have 11/12 AD of plasma each - enough to beat out the phasers of a single ship and still deliver some semi decent damage.


What I was musing over though was a way, using existing mechanics that would A) make getting closer to plasma ships something to actually think twice about, and B) make smaller amounts of plasma a bit more useful.

Thinking of the maths, so far I have the idea of of combining 2 things, one that has been mentioned a few times before.

1) require 2 phaser hits to knock off 1 AD (round down, in plasma favor)
2) alter energy bleed to 4" increments:
0-4 is full strength
4-8 = -1
8-12 = -2
12-16 = -3

This does 2 things, it makes it harder to shoot down plasma, but in compensation reduces its effectiveness over the mid ranges. Over all that means that between 0-4" it is more effective than now, somewhat less effective between 4-12, and the slightly more effective between 12-16 (but at that range the extra boost is neither here nor there in all likely hood). Plasma F now looks like it has the limited range it does in the other games, whilst still being painful at point blank range.

In particular it means that those ships with just a small amount of plasma can actually achieve something without having to dump it all on the same ship to have any chance of doing something vaguely useful, so long as they get close. It also means there is now a good reason not to close so much on plasma ships, and take a bit more account of the ranges. It also makes Gorn/Rom cruisers a bit more interesting, as at the moment you really need to gang up a bit to beat down IDF phasers, but with the above adjustment they actually get quite scary at range 4 or less, enough to be somewhat threatening on thier own, though they are less effective after that than currently, but again that seems to fit better with the SFU plasma IMO.


NB - note at no range does the plasma actually do more gross damage, it is only against ships defending themselves that short range plasma is better, against defensless targets 0-4 is exactly the same as now, and worse than currenctly beyond that.

 

[McKinstry]

Romulans are doing just fine, as is, in games so far and the Fed/Klingon/Romulan balance between fleets generally works as well. I'd be inclined to see how the Gorn fare once they and the Kzinti are out and being played a bunch before adding yet more errata/changes, the shear volume of which has already generated more than enough negative pushback not to mention the risk of fixing something that ain't broke.

Assuming the Lyrans are the 2013 entry with the Hydrans in late 2013/early 2014, I don't think ISC considerations will matter much for at least 2+ years and the game will evolve a fair amount long before issues of ISC tactics become a matter of discussion.

 

[storeylf]

Romulans are doing just fine, as is, in games so far and the Fed/Klingon/Romulan balance between fleets generally works as well. I'd be inclined to see how the Gorn fare once they and the Kzinti are out and being played a bunch before adding yet more errata/changes, the shear volume of which has already generated more than enough negative pushback not to mention the risk of fixing something that ain't broke.

As I noted I don't have a problem, balance wise, with the current empires.

My concern is more that certain aspects of the plasma mechanics will cause issues as other empires make their appearance. Though it would be nice to see those gameplay changes even now IMO. It never feels quite right when someone goes nose to nose with your plasma ship.

 

[McKinstry]

My concern is more that certain aspects of the plasma mechanics will cause issues as other empires make their appearance.

In the new Call to Arms Journal it talks about the battleships supplement for Q1 2013 so it may be more accurate to say the ISC won't hit until 2015. Until we see how Lyrans (and maybe much later Hydrans) interact, I'd still focus on having their rules work rather than tweaking existing ones that work fine in the here and now.

For me, nose to nose plasma is already horribly nasty unless you're at the very start of a turn with tons of sucessful IDF behind you and trying to fire a Plasma F or two at medium range unless a target is already compromised defensively should be useless.

 

[storeylf]

In the new Call to Arms Journal it talks about the battleships supplement for Q1 2013 so it may be more accurate to say the ISC won't hit until 2015. Until we see how Lyrans (and maybe much later Hydrans) interact, I'd still focus on having their rules work rather than tweaking existing ones that work fine in the here and now.

I'll respectfully disgree with that. Letting something work one way for several years, then finding you have a problem when you introduce other empires, which you already know have certain chararteristics, is the worse position.

For me, nose to nose plasma is already horribly nasty unless you're at the very start of a turn with tons of sucessful IDF behind you

That depends on how much you have. 2 plasma S (what ISC cruisers/DNs have) is nothing to an enemy cruiser. 2 plasma F is utterly meaningless. Yet in the SFU both of those scenarios will cause the enemy cruiser to take other action, either not close in the first place or be prepared to take internals.

It is no better than it is at mid range, where it ought to be weaker. Once you are range 8 then you have no disincentive to carry on closing.


In the SFU plasma is mainly a way of forcing the enemy to manouer in a certain way. Unlike drones you can't out manouver it. That has been totally lost in the translation, and whilst its raw damage allows Gorn/rom to compete currently, it has both lost the flavor of the SFU, and more importantly is likely to result in some odd games with Hydran/Lyran/ISC.

and trying to fire a Plasma F or two at medium range unless a target is already compromised defensively should be useless.

But they are no better at close range either. I'm not talking about throwing 2 Fs out at range 12, I'm talking throwing 2 Fs and a G at point blank range and doing nothing of note. No matter how close you get there is nothing to fear from a smaller plasma ship. I would worry about 3 photons from a Fed DD in its own right, but a Gorn DD, pffft...

And no it should not be useless, again you are missing the key point, even a fully intact ship will be wary of closing against that plasma, or will turn off and run, or will take a good chunk of damage.

The way seekers work in this game means that can't happen directly, however, by adjusting the current rules you can try and recreate some of that feel.

 

[Captain Jonah]

It may well be that the ISC have the weapons they have and that PPDs have to be designed around the fact that the “Fluff” echelon and gun line is simply not viable under the ACTA-SF rules.

As you rightly say a gun line of a few FFs and DDs throwing 6 or 8 Plasma Fs is hardly going to scare anyone. A Plasma heavy force will have Plasma Ss which makes closing head on more dangerous but a PPD heavy force is going to have a lot of firepower at range and very little up close.

Bearing in mind that the entire gun line throwing 8 Fs doing 16 AD is enough to seriously threaten a whole cruiser after you Phaser down 6 or so AD of that plasma unless its a Klink on a berserker run in which case you may not even take down the front shield. With 4 or 6 plasma S torps from the heavies that is a dead cruiser but you are then left with no PPDs and may as well be playing the Gorn.

The ISC are a long time in the future so the game may well have changed a lot by then. After all as you say we have the Hydran and Lyran first and once they start tearing apart the Gorn and Feds who are not mobile enough to get away from them.

The Lyran are possibly going to be murder to a Rom fleet that tries to cloak and anyone that cannot stop the Hydrans getting to 1” range such as those fleets with turn mode 6 ships is going to lose a lot of ships very quickly.

So the close range thing may we have been looked at a lot before we get close to having the ISC arrive.

PS. Dropping the Energy bleed to 4” stages makes the plasma F even more useless than it is now as it means an F does 1AD between 5” and 8”. That is a significant drop in firepower for the small stuff who need to mob a target to do any damage now.

 

[storeylf]

PS. Dropping the Energy bleed to 4” stages makes the plasma F even more useless than it is now as it means an F does 1AD between 5” and 8”. That is a significant drop in firepower for the small stuff who need to mob a target to do any damage now.

I disagree on that.

First, plasma F gets a boost at short range. The raw damage is the same as before, but it takes twice as many phasers to stop it. If I launch 2 plama F at 0-4" then even the full complement of phasers from most cruisers will not stop it all, where as under the current rules it has almost no chance of doing anything.

Second, whilst between 4-8 the raw damage of the F is halved, you still need twice as many phasers. If you want to stop all the plasma F damage you have to put in just as many phasers as before.

Taken together that makes plasma F much more in keeping with the SFU. Plasma F is nasty enough to stop when you have to deal with it from very close range, but even a small amount of extra distance mitigates it a lot.

For the purposes of small plasma ships, be they ISC or others, they would have the ability to engage any other ship and actually do noticeble damage without requiring that they are all ganging up on the same ship like they have to at the moment, something no other empire has to do, and isn't reflecticive of the SFU particularly. A Gorn with 2 F and 1 G is not much to worry about singly at the moment, but under these changes would be something to watch out for if you let it get close, and that was exactly what I wanted to achieve, that feeling that actually you don't want to keep on closing with any plasma ship. Ganging up is still good, but no longer quite so mandatory.

The way the maths works means that if you face no defensive fire at all then plasma would be 'nerfed' as it loses damage between 4-12". However, for every phaser used in defense they get better at all ranges. Basically, at those mid ranges, every plasma weapon fired loses you a dice of damage, but every 2 phasers fired gains you a dice of damage overall.

A standard plasma cruiser with 2S and 2F are always as good as or better at short range, it is still good to defend agaisnt it, but that defense is not as good. At mid range you lose 4AD to start with, but if 7 phasers hit it then you are in the same position as now. Whilst most cruisers can bring about 6-8 phasers to bear, some have less than that, so 1 vs 1 the plasma ship is slightly worse off at range 4-12, but slightly better off under that. In a fleet action, the more IDF that is used the more it counters the amount of lost damage resulting from using more plasma weapons. If you use 20 plasma weapons at range 8 then you will be 20 dice worse off, but unless the enemy chooses to not defend he will negate a chunk of that bonus by putting in more phasers in to defend. Again there is a clear incentive to be weary of the range a plasma force is getting to, recreating, within the limits of ACTA, more of that same principle form the other SFU games.

For the ISC, having 8 Plasma F (on probably about 400pts of ships, give or take) would currently mean you will have to throw pretty much the entire lot at 1 cruiser, who with even 1 extra ship on IDF to help will phaser down the probably 75% of it, and take some shield damage. You would now have at least some hope of actually taking out the shield and doing internals, throw in a couple of plasma S from a seciond line ship to finish it off, unless he hung back a few more inches. That still won't exactly stop an enemy in a fleet action, but it does give some reason to avoid just going as close as possible, it also makes those rear firing plasma, which are even fewer in number (in terms of how many can be fired).


Whilst we don't know how they will work, conceptually both Lyran and Hydran will tear apart Gorn/Roms with Fusions/ESG whilst they are also both well equipped with phasers to shoot down plasma. It will currently be meaningless to them whether they are at range 2" or 8".

 

[McKinstry]

I still can't see any value in changing rules that work right now and certainly not until the Lyrans, Hydrans and the full development, including carriers/fighters, of the General War races take place.

Worrying about how the ISC will behave fluff wise when they will never appear unless the game grows and flourishes in the here and now adds current risk (the game has already been criticized/slagged on other forums and here over the amount of errata as is) for the possible future fluff benefit of a race that may or may not reach production.

 

[archon96]

Been using plasma's in all of my games for a couple of months now. The one trick i learned is that instead of mopping up with the bigger ships, I fire my big ships first to burn up his defensive fire, and then come in with the smaller destroyers to hammer down his shields. Goods roles on 4AD of plasma can be devastating even to a cruiser, two destroyers getting in their 4AD ea one a single target he's pretty much done, unless you role total crap.

 

[storeylf]

Worrying about how the ISC will behave fluff wise when they will never appear unless the game grows and flourishes in the here and now adds current risk (the game has already been criticized/slagged on other forums and here over the amount of errata as is) for the possible future fluff benefit of a race that may or may not reach production.

I think you are misunderstanding. It was thinking about ISC that got me thinking about this, but I'm equally concerned that hydrans and Lyrans are going to be just as bad. Bad, as in whilst they may be balanced (or not) they are just not going to feel right when interacting with plasma empires.

And regardless of any of those empires, small plasma ships at the moment just feel even more wrong.

Plasma may be balanced now, but it just feels wrong. Keeping as it is is going to lead to other empires being designed with plasma as is, and they will probably end up feeling wrong as well as a result.


PS Most of the errata is ships, I don't personally see that as a great issue. The rules could do with tidying up to be clearer and tighter, but that is poor writing style and not really whether the rules are good or not.

I could equally argue that the game may flourish more if it somehow managed to get some of the interactions that you are supposed to get in the SFU. Plasma is the main downer for me, it just feels like a direct fire weapon, it has lost almost everything that it was. Drones I can sort of accept, they didn't have that much affect on people closing with you if they knew what they were doing, and weren't really that range dependent. Plasma though had a major effect on things getting close, and was extremely range dependent, and even the plasma from a destoyer was not something you wanted hitting you as it would hurt no matter that you dumped all your phasers in it (if you were close enough).

 

[McKinstry]

I think you are misunderstanding. It was thinking about ISC that got me thinking about this, but I'm equally concerned that hydrans and Lyrans are going to be just as bad. Bad, as in whilst they may be balanced (or not) they are just not going to feel right when interacting with plasma empires.

And regardless of any of those empires, small plasma ships at the moment just feel even more wrong.

Plasma may be balanced now, but it just feels wrong. Keeping as it is is going to lead to other empires being designed with plasma as is, and they will probably end up feeling wrong as well as a result.

I'm not sure I understand the 'feel' issue but then I like the SFU background and love the look of the ships but dislike the actual game. I quit SFB when drones and fighters tackled fun to the ground and proceeded to choke it to death in 32 pulse increments.

PS Most of the errata is ships, I don't personally see that as a great issue. The rules could do with tidying up to be clearer and tighter, but that is poor writing style and not really whether the rules are good or not.

I agree but you and I are not the folks here, on TMP and TGN that have issues and they have made their point and publicly. There has been a consistent level of grumbling since the first and providing extra ammunition simply does not help the game.

I could equally argue that the game may flourish more if it somehow managed to get some of the interactions that you are supposed to get in the SFU. Plasma is the main downer for me, it just feels like a direct fire weapon, it has lost almost everything that it was. Drones I can sort of accept, they didn't have that much affect on people closing with you if they knew what they were doing, and weren't really that range dependent. Plasma though had a major effect on things getting close, and was extremely range dependent, and even the plasma from a destoyer was not something you wanted hitting you as it would hurt no matter that you dumped all your phasers in it.

This is really a core target market issue. All weapons in ACTA-SF are essentially direct fire, be they drone, plasma or photon and given the scope and scale of a fleet action, they work well at that. Rather than appeal to SFB/FC crossovers, although that is a valid and important segment, my guess is that significant retail material success is in getting the ACTA-B5, ACTA-NA, Full Thrust, BFG, Firestorm Armada & the other 'generic' universes to buy into the SFU background without the need to feel like they are playing SFB/FC-lite. Personally I'm picking up F&E to go with ACTA but see no need for anything more granular than ACTA.

 

[storeylf]

I'm not sure I understand the 'feel' issue but then I like the SFU background and love the look of the ships but dislike the actual game. I quit SFB when drones and fighters tackled fun to the ground and proceeded to choke it to death in 32 pulse increments.

Lol - well I think we are about the same there in quiting SFB. I liked it when the only people with carriers were kzinti and they had slow assault shuttles. Then it became a case of all sorts of drone racks, even more sorts of drones, oodles of fighters with minor differences, and all sorts of mionr refits etc etc. Nowadays from what I gather reading forums it even tracks different types of boarding parties!.

I like the background, mainly, but play FC now.

By 'feel', I mean what I've been saying. Plasma be it in SFB or SFU was a weapon that was hugely effective if you were caught close up. It was a weapon you ran from (or in SFB came to a screeching halt and a WW), because it hurt if you didn't. Even a bit of range was a good defense, as the ever present Plasma F at least very rapidly lost effectiveness over just a few impulses. It was a weapon more so than any other you used to affect enemy movement options.

So far with the empires that are in the game that feel isn't there, but it probably isn't quite so important, in that non of them are really of the 'need to get very close' type. However, I have had the occasion where I have fired all 7AD on a Gorn DD at point blank range and done no damage. I accept that this is more a fleet game, but even so that just felt so wrong. It felt even more wrong that the enemy couldn't care less whether he was at the haflway range of photons or in base contact.

Feds or Klingons or kzinti, or when they arrive anyone else, will have small ships that if they shoot at a cruiser with their heavy weapons they will do damage and it will feel in some way a reasonable representation of SFB/FC. A plasma DD packed more raw damage than a Fed cruisers 4 overloaded photon damage, yet not only does a cruiser not fear getting close to them, they may not take any damage either after phasers. Given the direct fire nature of plasma in this game, and the shortened fire cycle I'm certainly not advocating that they get that sort of firepower. But I would like to see:

A) Any plasma ship commands a certain amount of respect, in its own right, just as any other empires does.
B) That plasma in general is something that you care about whether you are in base contact or 8" away (etc), to provide some 'representation' of that impact on enemy manouvering.


Interestingly we played a plasma FC game the other night with a couple of small ships each. I launched a plasma R (war eagle) at one enemy ship, and it didn't take part in the battle after that - the plasma did no damage, but by the time it had ran away and then turned around and got back the other enemy ship was effectively dead, and game over. I know, and accept, we will not get that in ACTA, but it is that total disinterest in plasma and how it impacts movement that is so missing from ACTA. I feel a smoother energy bleed will go some way to giving some sort of representation of that.

 

[McKinstry]

Maybe it is just us but we fear plasma greatly right now and go to great lengths to make darn sure plasma users stay as far away as possible. I don't like them within 8" and most of my Fed or Klingon manouvering in face of a Romulan fleet involves keeping them at arms length and the heavy use of IDF. My basic plan is to get them to empty their tubes at 8+ inches while I've put every ship that can pass the CQ test on IDF, survive even if it means firing every phaser in the fleet defensively, and then pillaging the buggers before/when they reload.

 

[Keeper Nilbog]

I find i have to agree with storeylf in regard to plamsa, in that most fleets don't seem to have the 'don't close with a plasma ship' issues that are in the SFB/FC systems - especially if they haven't played these systems, just ActA. The fact that a cruiser can totally canceal out around 5AD of plasma when fired at it, without support (most Fed ships can put 6AD of phasers into most arcs) means that the full damage of 2 x F and an S torp (which would be 70pts point blank and around 50 between 5-8") is unlikely to do more than scratch a shield (in a one on one fight, the non plasma fleets have a massive advantage as there weapons can't be stopped, generally leak, and they don't have to worry about drone defence). Klingons closing to 4" to get the RX so that the P-2's are in killzone is common, as they don't actually have to worry about plasma hit (when RX, can take hits on the double strength front shield, so may not even need to devote phasers to defence).

I still think the plasma is too easy to knock down with phasers - liked the idea that it took 2 pts (rounded against the plasma) to kill a plasma AD, but Killzone counted (and to be fair - we hardly ever use IDF, just BEtS), but take Mathew's comment that the idea is to represent the combined firing over the torps travels. Still, Plasma doesn't have the scare factor that it does in the base (ship v ship style) games.

 

[Da Boss]

Maybe it is just us but we fear plasma greatly right now and go to great lengths to make darn sure plasma users stay as far away as possible. I don't like them within 8" and most of my Fed or Klingon manouvering in face of a Romulan fleet involves keeping them at arms length and the heavy use of IDF. My basic plan is to get them to empty their tubes at 8+ inches while I've put every ship that can pass the CQ test on IDF, survive even if it means firing every phaser in the fleet defensively, and then pillaging the buggers before/when they reload.

Same here - Plasma scares the hell out of me having had it used on me and used it myself

 

[archon96]

There should be a maximun range to IDF, a ship at 17 inches from the target should not be able to shoot down my plasma torps that i fired at 3inches from target. that gets annoying.

 

[storeylf]

Just to be clear I don't disgree with Kinstry and boss that plasma over the fleet can be scary, and it isn't unbalanced (against current fleets anyway).

My issue is the feel of it, not balance, and that it requires combining ships firepower to get anywhere. Small ships in particular don't feel right. Sure they will put in their 4-7AD of plasma which just goes into one big pot of all plasma effectively, but in their own right they are pretty much meh. Not like a Fed who you worry will stick a leak or 2 through your shields, or a klink/kzinti ship which is relentlessly whittling you down turn after turn.

Another way of looking at it is the classic TV duel, War Eagle vs a Constitution.

The war eagle has 7AD of plasma, the same as plasma destroyers usually, albeit 1 big plasma. The Fed can snooze through that fight, no matter how close the Rom gets. 7AD will be shot by a minimum 6 phasers (4 or 5 hits usually), and what is left will be dealt with via shield boost. The odd photon strike and phasers whilst plasma reloads will eventually wear out the war eagle.

Yet this was the show where the Fed was running backwards as fast as possible, and worried about taking a second such hit even after the first one had been phasered down.

The change I was musing over would mean that if the Eagle did uncloak at point blank range then it would be looking at 5 dice of damage (6 on a good day), probably still not enough to win, but at least giving the feel that a good turn could leave the Fed looking rather dubious with shields almost down. There would be a reason the Fed would reverse 4" if it uncloaked in front of it, as 4" back would reduce the damage it took by another AD.

 

[Da Boss]

I see what you are saying - although there is also the episode where the crew start aging and the Enterprise gets attacked by 9 Romulan ships all firing plasma with little effect (watched it last week) also the Enterprise can go backwards at maximum speed......tv ain't very consistant

The other option is to give the ISC better plasma to achieve the same effect as in SFU

 

[McKinstry]

Just to be clear I don't disgree with Kinstry and boss that plasma over the fleet can be scary, and it isn't unbalanced (against current fleets anyway).

We however would have an instant problem with plasma fleets right now if they get any better versus the Feds or Klinks or Kzinti. This may not apply to the Gorn but making plasma more effective now creates a balance problem with the Feds, Klingons and Kzinti who are balanced with the Romulans and correcting that problem (make photons/drones/disruptors better to counteract the improved plasma?) potentially creates additional problems. Again, I'd have to go with if it works, don't fix it. When the Lyrans come out, tweak the heck out of them until they balance and get ready to do it all again for the Hydrans, rinse - repeat.

 

[archon96]

Give a max range to IDF and think that would go a long way to making plasma's feel like the OH crap weapon. Right now a horde of frigates making their IDF pretty much negates a plasma force.