Movement Issues

[Richard]

Having read many of his scenarios and a little about his campaigning I reckon Loz certainly counts as an agent of chaos, or at least of Neal Peart (Those scenario/chapter titles!).

 

[Grimolde]

At the risk of flogging the proverbial dead horse, I think there's an unresolved issue here. Following are all the rules on Movement found in the Mongoose RuneQuest 2 Rule Book

Movement page 11
Human Adventurers have a base Movement rate of 8 metres per Combat Round.
Ok no problem.

Combat Rounds page 48
In a combat round, you can move a distance, usually a number of metres, equal to his Movement score (unless sprinting or charging, see below).
Same thing. Moving on.

Movement
If sprinting, the movement rate is multiplied by 5…
Yup. Nice and easy.

Sprinting page 63
Multiply the base Movement by 5 and subtract the Armour Penalty. The result is how fast the Adventurer can move during short chases, or when charging.
Again, no problems yet.

Charge page 84
By spending 1 CA, if enough space, the Adventurer may charge into close combat, combining the movement with an attack.
No worries here.

Charging page 90
Unless the charging creature willingly stops or is forcibly stopped dead, the charge only allows a single Combat Action for the Attacker…that round.
No worries here either.

Move page 84
The following are activities a character can attempt by spending one Combat Action during their turn.

Ok here I hit a wall. I see a problem here. If you look at the following list of things you can do in one Combat Round, one of them is:

Move: If unengaged, the Adventurer may move his full movement rate.

It is said, that the above should read '1 Combat Round' and not '1 Combat Action'. But how can you 'spend' 1 Combat Round? Part of the confusion, I think, stems from the fact that the above text follows on from an explanation about Combat Actions.

It's my thinking that, it isn't that the above should read '1 Combat Round', as opposed to '1 Combat Action', but that the 'Move' entry shouldn't be listed there.

The shorter question is, how far can you move in one round, spending one CA?

What do you think? It's the only thing I'm having trouble with right now.

 

[PhilHibbs]

I think from the explanations so far, you can move your Move Rate in one round, and you can do it all in one CA or you can split it among your CAs. So if you move 5 in CA1, then move 2m in CA2, you can only move 1m during your subsequent CAs. If you want to move more than your Move Rate in a round, you have to sprint.

 

[Grimolde]

I think from the explanations so far, you can move your Move Rate in one round, and you can do it all in one CA or you can split it among your CAs. So if you move 5 in CA1, then move 2m in CA2, you can only move 1m during your subsequent CAs. If you want to move more than your Move Rate in a round, you have to sprint.

I think you are right.

I also think the problem lies not in the '1 Combat Action' or '1 Combat Round' issue, but in the entry listed:

Move: If unengaged, the Adventurer may move his full movement rate.

I'd probably re-write it as:

Move: If unengaged, the Adventurer may move up to his his full movement rate. However, if he chooses to move his full movement rate on his turn, he cannot move any further that Combat Round.

Otherwise it makes it look like you can move up to your Move rate per CA.

 

[Grimolde]

Bert the Barbarian has 4 CAs

Alf the Archer also has 4 CAs

Bert charges Alf and attacks = 0 CAs left
Alf successfully parries = 3 CAs left

Bert the Barbarian is now in a world of hurt as he can do nothing but stand there and recieve 3 attacks from Alf the Archer.

I'm assuming that unless you hold an action and opt to charge a target that's used almost all his CAs, you should never charge?

 

[Dan True]

I think from the explanations so far, you can move your Move Rate in one round, and you can do it all in one CA or you can split it among your CAs. So if you move 5 in CA1, then move 2m in CA2, you can only move 1m during your subsequent CAs. If you want to move more than your Move Rate in a round, you have to sprint.

I think you are right.

I also think the problem lies not in the '1 Combat Action' or '1 Combat Round' issue, but in the entry listed:

Move: If unengaged, the Adventurer may move his full movement rate.

I'd probably re-write it as:

Move: If unengaged, the Adventurer may move up to his his full movement rate. However, if he chooses to move his full movement rate on his turn, he cannot move any further that Combat Round.

Otherwise it makes it look like you can move up to your Move rate per CA.

Or shorter and clearer:

Move: If unengaged, the Adventurer may move his full movement rate. Remember that the maximum movement per round still applies.

Bert the Barbarian has 4 CAs

Alf the Archer also has 4 CAs

Bert charges Alf and attacks = 0 CAs left
Alf successfully parries = 3 CAs left

No, because Bert only connects with Alf on the last CA. So it should be:

Bert declares a charge = 0 CAs left.
Alf does something = 3 CAs left
Alf does something = 2 CAs left
Alf does something = 1 CA left

Bert's charge hits home, and now they both have 1 CA left.
If Alf had 5 CAs, he would now have 2 CAs versus Bert's 1 and Bert would be in trouble.

 

[Grimolde]

No, because Bert only connects with Alf on the last CA. So it should be:

Bert declares a charge = 0 CAs left.
Alf does something = 3 CAs left
Alf does something = 2 CAs left
Alf does something = 1 CA left

Bert's charge hits home, and now they both have 1 CA left.
If Alf had 5 CAs, he would now have 2 CAs versus Bert's 1 and Bert would be in trouble.

Alf loses his CAs even though he does nothing but wait?

 

[Dan True]

No, because Bert only connects with Alf on the last CA. So it should be:

Bert declares a charge = 0 CAs left.
Alf does something = 3 CAs left
Alf does something = 2 CAs left
Alf does something = 1 CA left

Bert's charge hits home, and now they both have 1 CA left.
If Alf had 5 CAs, he would now have 2 CAs versus Bert's 1 and Bert would be in trouble.

Alf loses his CAs even though he does nothing but wait?

Well, in my example I assumed Alf did something other than wait (maybe he's minding his garden, and that's why Bert is charging him). But yes, you loose the CA each turn even if you do nothing.

If you're in a fight and you spent 1½ second doing nothing - that's 1½ second you've lost, which you could have spend doing something.

If it weren't this way you could just wait all your SR's until everyone around you had spent all their CAs, then start harvesting their organs for sale in the us.

- Dan

 

[Da Boss]

Bert the Barbarian has 4 CAs

Alf the Archer also has 4 CAs

Bert charges Alf and attacks = 0 CAs left
Alf successfully parries = 3 CAs left

Bert the Barbarian is now in a world of hurt as he can do nothing but stand there and recieve 3 attacks from Alf the Archer.

I'm assuming that unless you hold an action and opt to charge a target that's used almost all his CAs, you should never charge?

Depends if you are allowed to parry or not - when we played last we were unsure if you could or not as the Charge rules give specific options...and Parry is not one of them.

On reflection I would allow it but with modifiers / consequencies depending on the situtation.

So a Hussar charging another Hussar might be very different to a Armoured Knight charging a guy with a knife compared to two Knights jousting.........

 

[languagegeek]

No, because Bert only connects with Alf on the last CA. So it should be:

Bert declares a charge = 0 CAs left.
Alf does something = 3 CAs left
Alf does something = 2 CAs left
Alf does something = 1 CA left

Bert's charge hits home, and now they both have 1 CA left.
If Alf had 5 CAs, he would now have 2 CAs versus Bert's 1 and Bert would be in trouble.

Alf loses his CAs even though he does nothing but wait?

I think Alf the archer can let loose a shot at Bert as the barbarian charges in.

SR iteration 1:
i) Bert declares a charge = spends all CAs
ii) Alf loads an arrow = spends 1 CA

SR iteration 2:
i) Bert is still charging
ii) Alf shoots the arrow at Bert = spends 1 CA. Alf gets a -10% on his check due to "Target has moved 10m or more since attacker’s last Combat Action". Bert can't parry or evade the shot because he's charging.

SR iteration 3:
i) Bert arrives at Alf's position and takes a swing with his axe.
ii) Alf can't parry with his bow in hand so he tries to evade.

Alternately, Alf can drop his bow, ready his spear and attempt a parry Bert's charge. Or, Alf can turn tail and run away.

 

[Grimolde]

I have it, if Bert the Barbarian declares a charge, then Alf can choose to do one perhaps two things until impact. If he chooses to do nothing, well as the rules state, choosing to do nothing also costs a CA.

Just remembered that rule now, so I guess I'll hit the players with that reasoning.

Thanks all

 

[Dan True]

I would allow the charger to parry if he has a shield, albeit with his Athletics skill limiting the combat style, as per the rules for sprinting. I would also allow an evade, but it will ruin the charge (and leave him straggled halfway).

If you don't allow parries (or at least, to cancel the charge to parry) charges will be almost suicidal... Which I think is a bit too drastic.

- Dan

 

[languagegeek]

I would allow the charger to parry if he has a shield, albeit with his Athletics skill limiting the combat style, as per the rules for sprinting. I would also allow an evade, but it will ruin the charge (and leave him straggled halfway).

If I allowed a parry with a shield, it would also end the charge in my books. I think carrying a shield in position for a parry defeats the spirit of a charge. And I wouldn't consider a charge the "safe" option anyway. For those who have actually fought with shields, is it possible to sprint while carrying one of those in position?

But I can see it with the athletics skill limiting the parry, that seems pretty fair. There could also be some legendary/heroic ability to fend of arrows with ones sword half-way through a charge.

 

[Da Boss]

Didn't the Romans charge with their shields to assist in the force of impact? Having the shield in front of you when you charge seems logical?

I gues alot of it comes down to how cinematic you are being?

Also I think charing on foot would be different to on horseback - presumably you could charge the enemy line whillst using you shield to fend off enemy arrows? Any reason why not - apart from issues with CA I guess?

 

[Dan True]

If I allowed a parry with a shield, it would also end the charge in my books. I think carrying a shield in position for a parry defeats the spirit of a charge. And I wouldn't consider a charge the "safe" option anyway. For those who have actually fought with shields, is it possible to sprint while carrying one of those in position?

I don't have huge experience with shields, but some and I think it only logical to have the shield in front of me when I charge. Some of these days I'll bring out my shield and run a few laps with it in front if me ... if the weather clears up.

And yep, both the romans and many others used their shields effectively when charging. The saxons, the celts and normans also made much use of shield walls, and if you can't have your shield in front of you as you run down toward the enemy line - it gets pretty tough to get the shield into position once you're there.

- Dan

 

[languagegeek]

I don't have huge experience with shields, but some and I think it only logical to have the shield in front of me when I charge. Some of these days I'll bring out my shield and run a few laps with it in front if me ... if the weather clears up.

And yep, both the romans and many others used their shields effectively when charging. The saxons, the celts and normans also made much use of shield walls, and if you can't have your shield in front of you as you run down toward the enemy line - it gets pretty tough to get the shield into position once you're there.

What I mean is, if I'm charging with a shield, I hold it up in front of me - maybe covering my chest and left arm. As I'm sprinting towards the enemy, if they shoot an arrow at me, and the hit-location is "head", would I be able to make the shield adjustment on the fly and move it up to block the arrow? Not to make things more complicated, but perhaps the shield in a charge counts as cover because it isn't actively parrying, but blocking off certain parts of the body.

In a more cinematic approach, sure the charger can parry with their small shield, deflecting arrows as they sprint. I have no clue whether this is feasible in a more realistic handling of combat.

 

[Dan True]

What I mean is, if I'm charging with a shield, I hold it up in front of me - maybe covering my chest and left arm. As I'm sprinting towards the enemy, if they shoot an arrow at me, and the hit-location is "head", would I be able to make the shield adjustment on the fly and move it up to block the arrow? Not to make things more complicated, but perhaps the shield in a charge counts as cover because it isn't actively parrying, but blocking off certain parts of the body.

Hmm, tough one.. will have to try it at some point to be sure - but yes, I believe it is possible. We should also take into account that the normal parry roll vs arrows (from my viewpoint) is based much more on the ability to have the shield in the correct position and correctly guess when the next salvo comes - than actually moving the shield to the position on your that you see the arrow will hit (it is too fast for that - you can see an arrow coming, but not accurately infer if it hits your head, leg or at all). When this is taken into account, it makes a lot of sense to allow it for the charge also... If he made his parry roll he simply had the shield at the right position due to skill or luck.

- Dan

 

[languagegeek]

We should also take into account that the normal parry roll vs arrows (from my viewpoint) is based much more on the ability to have the shield in the correct position and correctly guess when the next salvo comes - than actually moving the shield to the position on your that you see the arrow will hit

Yeah, that makes sense to me. And, after reading through this thread, I think it's preferable to keep charging as mechanically simple as possible: a shield can parry missiles regardless of whether it's being used an close combat or during a sprint.

 

[Grimolde]

We should also take into account that the normal parry roll vs arrows (from my viewpoint) is based much more on the ability to have the shield in the correct position and correctly guess when the next salvo comes - than actually moving the shield to the position on your that you see the arrow will hit

Yeah, that makes sense to me. And, after reading through this thread, I think it's preferable to keep charging as mechanically simple as possible: a shield can parry missiles regardless of whether it's being used an close combat or during a sprint.

But if used to parry by the charger, whilst charging, that costs a CA?

 

[Dan True]

We should also take into account that the normal parry roll vs arrows (from my viewpoint) is based much more on the ability to have the shield in the correct position and correctly guess when the next salvo comes - than actually moving the shield to the position on your that you see the arrow will hit

Yeah, that makes sense to me. And, after reading through this thread, I think it's preferable to keep charging as mechanically simple as possible: a shield can parry missiles regardless of whether it's being used an close combat or during a sprint.

But if used to parry by the charger, whilst charging, that costs a CA?

Argh, another complication. All CAs are already used to pay the charge, but then again why not parry with the same CA that is "spent" on movement "on that turn".
So, it costs a CA - but one of the CAs already used to pay the charge. This way one can also effectively ruin a charge by peppering him with arrows - since they spend all their time parrying, he has no CAs left when reaching the target...

But yes... Common sense indicates he should be able to parry (at least to me) if he would have CAs to parry if he weren't moving.

- Dan